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Edge dimensions[edit]

An edge is a one-dimensional border of a figure with at least 2 dimensions. There are 4 edges of a square and 12 edges of a cube. However, in software for 1990's versions of Windows, programs that ask you to draw shapes often have options for edge width, which implies an edge DOES have 2 dimensions. Anything it's important not to confuse here?? Georgia guy (talk) 20:45, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

Yes, don't confuse a 1-D edge with its 2-D representation. A line with zero width would not be visible. Dbfirs 20:58, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

And in raster graphics, that thickness is in pixels. SinisterLefty (talk) 22:09, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

Also, it's not just 1990's software, specifying the line thickness in some form is common to just about all drawing programs. However, it may be called 'Pen', 'Brush' or something else, or may use icons with no text name shown. SinisterLefty (talk) 01:08, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

gatekeeper.*.key[edit]

The files

and

are present on Android Pie (and earlier) devices with screen locks. I know that they are used to verify the device's password, but are they necessary for decrypting the files on the device? — Melab±1☎ 04:52, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

I doubt it. Based on the name, I suspect the 'pattern' file defines the way you unlock the screen, saying by swiping in certain directions. SinisterLefty (talk) 10:43, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

Are there substances that might make better tiny integrated circuit wires than cobalt?[edit]

Apparently cobalt is more conductive than copper at very small nodes. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 17:27, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

There are other factors to consider. Gold is a decent choice, due to it's resistance to corrosion and ductility, which makes it easier to form and less likely to crack from vibrations. And the tiny amount used means that the cost isn't much of a factor. SinisterLefty (talk) 03:39, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

However, if any of the gold touches silicon, it destroys the minority carrier lifetime, limiting its usefulness as a conductor.--Phil Holmes (talk) 08:26, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

What is a guce referrer?[edit]

This appears twice in the URL of an email I am working on. I suspect this question is related.— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 19:40, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

I think guccounter is what Yahoo/AOL/Verizon adds to keep track that it's shown you that you've accepted the 'surrender your privacy rights' screen when you have cookies and JS disabled. Appending '&guccounter=2' lets you open their webpages without having to agree to tracking (even tho they'll still try to track you). Guce referrer probably has something to do with tracking too, but I steer clear of those shoddy businesses enough to not have to find out what it's for. 93.136.143.215 (talk) 12:00, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

The previous question is very related. The query string part of the URL (the part after the ?) is for storing variable names and values. A programmer can use any name they like. You can set pig=8 or altacetifercero=infinity. As stated in the previous question, programmers can use any name they like. They are not required in any way to publish what variable names they used and what those variable names mean. You can try to decipher meaning, but you could be completely wrong. The previous question asked about guccounter, which we can assume is some kind of counter. But, it might not be a counter at all. We are making an assumption because we are not AOL programmers. So, we have no way to see the actual code on the web server. As for guce referrer, we can assume it is a referrer, but we could be completely wrong. It might not be a referrer in any way. We are not AOL programmers. In your previous question, you claimed that you were not actually asking a question. You were making a statement so others could see that guccounter existed in case it was important. Are you asking a question this time or just making a statement? 199.164.8.1 (talk) 14:18, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

I didn't say I wasn't asking a question. I said I didn't intend to ask AOL.— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 16:17, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Help with extracting info from json api[edit]

Using xidel how to I extract only the chapter numbers from this json api? I tried the following;

but I get a load of other sub information that I don't want. I only want the chapter numbers, for example the output should look like this;

I've a novice with json so any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks. 77.103.40.144 (talk) 14:52, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

I see two potential problems with the json file, that the chapter numbers don't have a label, like 'chapter_number', and that 'chapter' is used to define 2 different things at 2 different levels. Thus you end up retrieving not only the chapter number but also all the other info available on that chapter (and possibly under the other label called 'chapter', I can't tell for sure because you didn't include your actual output). Ideally the json file format would be fixed to address these issues. ALL items should have UNIQUE labels. Avoid having the label 'chapter' used to define 2 different things at 2 different levels by making the second one something like 'chapter_heading' (but be aware that changing this label could break other queries that have the bad label hard-coded in). Then your -e clause would look like '-e '$json/chapter/chapter_number'. However, if you can't do this, some options come to mind:

1. Only retrieve the first string found under each chapter. This addresses the first issue only.
2. Only retrieve the first 6 digits found under each chapter (if we can assume the length is always 6). This addresses the first issue only.
3. Only retrieve the first level of strings under each chapter, since the additional info is at sublevels under the chapter number. In other words, don't do a recursive search. This addresses the first issue only.
4. Explicitly exclude the other items listed under the chapter: 'volume', 'chapter', 'title', 'lang_code', 'group_id', 'group_name', 'group_id_2', 'group_name_2', 'group_id_3', 'group_name_3', and 'timestamp'. This may require explicitly including the full path, to avoid the confusion over the two different 'chapter' labels. But the missing 'chapter_number' label will again be a problem, not allowing you to exclude '$json/chapter/chapter_number/chapter' until you make the partial file fix, or '$json/chapter/chapter_number/chapter_heading' after you make the full file fix. If xidel allows wildcards, then something like excluding '$json/chapter/*/chapter' (along with the other labels), may work, without fixing the json file format.

I don't know the syntax for each approach, but hopefully you can look that up. If xidel can't do what you want, you might try redirecting/piping the output to a command line utility that can. There you could remove everything from the output that isn't a 6 digit number, including the timestamp, which is a number with more digits. (There are other 6 digit numbers in the original json file, but hopefully your xidel command does at least filter those out.) If you will include your current output and the O/S you are using, others should be able to tell you how to filter it down to what you need, using a redirect/pipe. SinisterLefty (talk) 15:11, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

It looks to me like the chapter numbers are dictionary keys rather than values. That is a little bit weird, but ok. From xidel/jsoniq docs you would use something like keys($json.chapter) but that's probably not quite right, and I'd have to install those programs and mess around for a while in order to test. Here is a python 2 script that gets the chapter numbers (as strings):

When I run the above, it prints

[u'668861', u'644663', u'644664', u'576777', u'670108', u'522807', u'504195', u'614751', u'697858', u'626558', u'622223']

173.228.123.207 (talk) 06:57, 29 August 2019 (UTC) Barbara creed the monstrous feminine pdf editor.

Question about AJAX and JavaScript code[edit]

I'm fairly sure I can use AJAX and jQuery to replace the contents of a web page without actually doing a full page load with something like this:

But I'm fairly sure that if the HTML source code returned from https://some.site.com/some/url/ includes JavaScript source code, it will just sit quietly in the page, it won't actually get executed. If so, how can I get it executed? JIP Talk 22:21, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

Beshrew me![edit]

Can someone confirm whether this blurry little fellow is a North African Elephant Shrew? He lives in a coastal scrubby area in Algeria. Thanks, Henry^Flower 13:10, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

I do not know. But, having looked at our article, I'd suggest that if the species is positively identified, your picture would be an improvement to the article. The illustration is okay, but the stuffed specimen is a tad nightmarish. Matt Deres (talk) 15:42, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

I'd rather see the stuffed version (although somebody should comb it's hair flat) than a blurry pic with the background the same color. But, yes, it looks like the same varmint to me. SinisterLefty (talk) 19:42, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

This picture would be too embarrassing to use, I think. If we can ID him, I'll go out again with a better camera and track down him or one of his friends. Henry^Flower 20:55, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

we already have this one: just use it already https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Petrosaltator_rozeti-Zootaxa.jpg

(looks very much the same species, and its cousins are living elsewhere, so my guess it is indeed what you think it is)

cousins:

Macroscelididae

Rhynchocyon Macroscelidinae Elephantulus Petrosaltator Petrodromus Macroscelides

(looks like we may have some discrepancies with the german equivalent https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordafrikanische_Elefantenspitzmaus , not sure but I cannot check details )

Gem fr (talk) 14:36, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

Raphia palm[edit]

Can the fruit of the Raffia palm be eaten and can the sap be drank instantly when collected or does this need to be refined in some way? Thank you Anton 81.131.40.58 (talk) 17:17, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

Don't know about the fruit, but our article says about the juice, 'When first collected from the tree, it is sweet and appears slightly carbonated'. Rojomoke (talk) 19:31, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

Vitamins, phytochemicals and toxic elements in the pulp and seed of raphia palm fruit (Raphia hookeri) 'The raphia palm tree is found in abundance in the southern part of Nigeria, especially in the southeastern part. It is grown mainly for its production of palm wine. It also bears fruits (Raphia hookeri) whose pulp is considered edible in some parts of the country and not edible in other parts.. Conclusion. The pulp and seed of R. hookeri are non-toxic and can serve as food as well as in medicine. [Next page] The yellow oily pulp has been reportedly used as bitter flavouring or occasionally as food, particularly when fresh. It can be eaten raw or after boiling but the taste is more agreeable when it is boiled than when it is raw. The pulp is normally consumed with boiled and sliced cassava'. Marc Nwosu OGBUAGU, Chem. Dep., Michael Okpara University of Agriculture.

So edible, but people aren't falling over themselves to eat the stuff. Alansplodge (talk) 21:13, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

Thomas Edison[edit]

There are many claims being made that Edison stole works from others. These are true or conspiracy theories?

http://newsreeling.com/about-thomas-edisons-lies-and-19-stolen-inventions— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2409:4061:2106:1A01:3483:A09F:5A25:16CD (talk) 05:13, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

The OP cites two examples of muck raking journalism.

Ref. 1 puts malicious slants on Edison's legal patenting in USA of X-ray fluoroscopy and the phonograph where we are told that Edison 'padded his bank account at Rontgen's expense'. Note that Röntgen expressly chose not to patent his discovery of X-rays for which he received multiple rewards including the first Nobel Prize in Physics, and which would inevitably have been acknowledged as Prior art in Edison's patent application. The smear piece continues with a 'sinister story' seeking to connect Edison with an unsolved murder that he 'may have nothing to do with' and accuses Edison of driving French cinematographer Georges Méliès into bankrupcy. A little research finds that unauthorized displays in the US of Méliès' film 'A Trip to the Moon' brought him fame that continued with production of more films, later as a partner in Edison's Motion Picture Patents Company (1908). Méliès' decline can be attributed to an unlucky Pacific film expedition in 1913, death of his wife and the onset of WW1 during which the French army confiscated film prints in order to recover silver and celluloid, the latter for shoe heels.

Ref. 2 alleges in superficial manner '19 stolen inventions' of which 16 have nothing to do with Edison. Its writer scolds 'naughty' Edison for co-inventing the light bulb with Joseph Swan when the reality is that thousands of light bulbs were manufactured with the trademark EDISWAN, reflecting the agreeable merger of their business interests in 1883. She tells the nonsense that 'During the 1980’s Edison developed his “Edison Vitascope”. Again she scolds Edison as 'naughty' for developing the principle of recording and reproducing sound starting in 1877. How could Edison dare usurp the glory of Édouard-Léon Scott de Martinville who earlier invented a Phonautograph that could only scratch a wriggly line on a cylinder with no pretense at that time of being able to play it back (sarcasm)?

'the men with the muck rakes are often indispensable to the well being of society; but only if they know when to stop raking the muck..' said Theodore Roosevelt. DroneB (talk) 14:10, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

Did you mean 1890's? I don't think Edison was all that active in the 1980's. :) ←Baseball Bugs^{What's up, Doc?}carrots→ 15:17, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

No. Sic erat scriptum.DroneB (talk) 22:38, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

Indeed, Edison credits Rontgen with the discovery of X-rays in his patent, claiming as his invention not the x-ray itself, but a particular means of using them to induce fluorescence. The implicit argument that Rontgen deserves credit for anything to do with x-rays reminds me of Morse's attempt to patent the very concept of using electromagnetism to communicate (see Samuel_Morse#Litigation_over_telegraph_patent). Someguy1221 (talk) 03:34, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

I think the above is sufficient to dismiss the claims, but I would also note that a false claim that Edison stole something is not a 'conspiracy theory'.A conspiracy theory alleges that two or more people contributed to some malicious action. If Edison had stolen someone's intellectual property, he could have done it all on his own. --76.69.116.4 (talk) 04:37, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

It has some elements of a conspiracy theory, though. ←Baseball Bugs^{What's up, Doc?}carrots→ 05:06, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

Well, it has the 'theory' element but not the 'conspiracy' element. I don't think 1 counts as 'some'. --76.69.116.4 (talk) 20:23, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

Conspiracy makes it easier to explain why the alleged thief got away with it and the alleged victim could not prevail. Officials would be involved in the cover-up, bullies hired to keep others quiet, people knowing the real owner would disregard him, the thief in turn would had help those helping him in their own evil schemes, the whole ring of villains would be Master of the universe, untouchables, etc. Makes the scenario more appealing and harder to disprove Gem fr (talk) 07:31, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

why JFET[edit]

hello, in AGC circuits, they mostly have an amplifier with a JFET as the control element (voltage-controlled resistor) in the feedback path or the input voltage divider. why? specifically, why not BJT (BC547) or MOSFETs (such as the 2N7001/BS170), moreso as JFETs seem to become more and more exotic with each passing year (do they?).. Is there a way to 'emulate' JFET behaviour using a BJT? Aecho6Ee (talk) 10:06, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

A JFET is better suited to use as a variable resistance to AC than a BJT because:

• The JFET's effective resistance between source and drain is a gradual function of the control voltage applied to the gate while the BJT responds abruptly to a change in the control voltage above or below a nominal 0.65V that depends on temperature applied to the base-emitter diode.
• The reverse-biased JGET gate draws virtually no current.
• JFETs are generally symmetrical which allows applying AC voltage between source and gate. A BJT must run at a finite collector current that is stabilised against temperature variation by additional components.

The impression that JFETs seem to become more exotic can arise from continual improvements in available component's power and frequency limits. However for applications such as gain control in a compander, the inexpensive 2N3819 N-Channel JFET still serves well. DroneB (talk) 12:27, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

Missing keys[edit]

They say that there is no such thing as a stupid question (only stupid answers). The following might be the exception that proves the rule:

On a keyboard (the musical kind) why are there 'missing' black keys? In other words, why are there some pairs of white keys that don't have a black key between them? If you took a frequency that was exactly half-way between the those two white keys, and made a black key for that frequency, would the universe implode or something? 2606:A000:1126:28D:8DFA:9F88:DA44:2E31 (talk) 18:01, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

The gap between any two adjacent keys of any colour is exactly a semitone (about a 6% frequency difference). See Equal temperament. The colour of the notes is just a keyboard convention. There are no 'missing' notes. Putting an extra note between any two adjacent notes would give a quarter tone which is seldom used in Western music, but perhaps can be heard in Indian and Arabic music. Dbfirs 18:27, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

A piece of music is normally composed using only or mainly notes from a preselected key or group of 7 notes sometimes taught as Do, Re, Mi, Fa, Sol, La, and Si. The starting note Do may be any one of 11 consecutive piano keys. When the tonic note Do is on the leftmost key in the illustration, the key of the music is said to be 'C major' and it is playable using white keys only. There are 11 other possible major keys corresponding to the other 11 possible tonic (starting) keys. The grouping of black and white piano keys allows immediate recognition of their fixed letter values. The particular set of black and white piano keys employed in any given major key (or in the 12 minor keys that differ from major keys in how the Solfège is spaced) will be deduced by the performer from the Key signature in the musical notation. DroneB (talk) 19:58, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

That 'Si' instead of 'Ti' might come as a shock to Rodgers and Hammerstein. ←Baseball Bugs^{What's up, Doc?}carrots→ 20:59, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

Decomposers since 1979 and 1960 respectively. R.I.P.DroneB (talk) 22:34, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

Blame Sarah Ann Glover who changed 'Si' to' Ti'. For that matter, 'Do' was originally 'Ut'. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.122.61.224 (talk) 02:26, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

«Ut queant laxi, Resonare fibris, Mira gestorum, Famuli tuorum, Solve polluti, Labii reatum, Sancte Iohannes.»Gem fr (talk) 07:38, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

Mention of the Solfège is an inevitable reminder of The Nairobi Trio. ←Baseball Bugs^{What's up, Doc?}carrots→ 22:53, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for the smart answers to my stupid question. I suspect the answer to my follow-up question will be found in the links provided (which I will actually read) -- which is: Since the interval between adjacent keys (regardless of color) is the same, how come improvising (aka: 'noodling'} with only the black keys sounds distinct from doing the same with only the white keys? --Or, is it just my imagination?-- I'll probably figure this out on my own from the links provided (and re-reading the helpful answers until they make sense to me), but any shortcuts would be appreciated. Thanks again. 2606:A000:1126:28D:8DFA:9F88:DA44:2E31 (talk) 04:32, 25 August 2019 (UTC) .. P.s.: no, Baseball Bugs, I don't catch catfish with my bare hands

Playing only the black keys (starting from F#) gives a pentatonic scale, which is associated with some oriental music or fol styles, whereas the white keys (starting from C) give the 'classical' 'western' major scale. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 06:52, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

and a pentatonic scale can be played on white notes (with optionally just the odd black) and it will sound the same on an instrument with Equal temperament, just higher or lower. It's easier to play on all black notes. Dbfirs 20:44, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

Thanks to all for the music theory primer! But now I have to get that damn song out of my head. —2606:A000:1126:28D:7931:7AE7:6D26:288 (talk) 17:05, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

• The thing with the black and white keys is that it is not much different in purpose than the dots on the neck of a guitar. It provides reference for the player to orient themselves on the instrument. Like a guitar, a piano player's fingers do not stay stationary on the same keys (as they might on other instruments like a flute or a trumpet) so they need either visual or tactile means to orient themselves. The key pattern allows that. They keys also match the western note pattern in the sense that the white keys represent the specific lettered notes (A, B, C, D, E, F, and G) while the black keys represent the sharps between those notes (A#, C#, D#, E#, G#). B# is enharmonic with C in equal temperament and E# is enharmonic with F, so those sharps don't need separate keys, which is why there are two less black keys. In equal temperament, flat notes are enharmonic with all existing notes already (Ab = G#, Bb = A#, Cb = B, Db = C#, Eb = D#, Fb = E, Gb = F#) so they don't need other keys. (It should be noted, if you really want to get in the weeds on this, that other tuning systems such as Pythagorean tuning and just intonation do not have such enharmonic notes, so strictly speaking you would need more keys in those systems. Those systems would work fine in singing and instruments like a violin, but become unwieldy on a piano or guitar unless you do something weird like microtonal music) --Jayron32 12:43, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

Thx again. I've also found useful information at Five black-key pentatonic scales of the piano and Isomorphic keyboard. My background in physics seems to be more of a hindrance than a help in understanding music theory, however; musicology and physics overlap, but there is a definite language barrier. 2606:A000:1126:28D:7931:7AE7:6D26:288 (talk) 15:16, 26 August 2019 (UTC)Actually, music theory and physics overlap quite nicely. There are a few basic bits to understand the music theory we are talking about here.

1. The western system is built on a series of 12 intervals. Those intervals define all notes in relation to the base note of the key called the root note. The most important interval is the octave, which in all tuning systems is defined as a 2:1 ratio of the root note's frequency. Thus, if a note is defined as 440 Hz (concert A is the name of that, but that isn't important), then the octave of that note has a fundamental frequency of 880 Hz (and is also a A). The other intervals are all given various names like major third and perfect fifth and minor sixth and so on. 'third' because you would apply 3 times to get an octave --perfect ratio 2^1/3:1 --, fifth because you apply 5 times, etc. Gem fr (talk) 07:18, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

I just want to clarify that Gem fr. edited my post to add some clarifications. I also want to point out that there's some disagreement between his clarifications, and information that can be found in other sources, especially the Wikipedia article titled Interval. It also disagrees with my experience in this. My prior understanding, which is similar to what the Wikipedia article notes, is that the name for an interval indicates which number interval (in order) it represents in one of the various diatonic scale. Thus, a second interval in the key of C is a D, the third is an E and so on. The difference between major and minor (or augmented and diminished) is that the interval is dropped or raised a semitone. Thus, a minor second in the key of C is a Db, while an augmented fourth is a F#, from the fourth note after C (CDEF, then RAISE the F). This also explains why some keys have ideas like double sharp or double flat; in a key like Eb major, the fifth is Bb, so the diminished fifth has to be Bbb (Eb, F, G, Ab, Bb). You can't call this an A, because the fourth is already notated as Ab; you only get one of each letter. The names don't actually have much to do with the ratios or multiples; just which place in the seven notes of the diatonic scale it falls. Also, they say that taking the perfect fifth 5 times gets an octave; except you don't. Because 3:2 times 5 is 15:2, and that's not any octave I know of, which will always be some whole-number multiple of the root (2:1, 3:1, etc.) If you follow the circle of fifths around 5 steps, you get a minor seventh interval, which is a whole tone off from an octave.--Jayron32 14:13, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

hum. Sorry I actually messed up matter instead of clarifying as intended. The only good point is that it gave you a chance to elaborate, otherwise I would just delete Gem fr (talk) 23:41, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

1. When two notes are played together, their soundwaves undergo wave interference. If the interval between the notes is resonant (that is, where the ratio of the frequencies is a small, whole number) humans tend to perceive such sounds as pleasant (what is called in music consonance, while intervals that do not come in small whole-number ratios have dissonance. A composer can evoke various visceral emotional responses in the listener by using consonance and dissonance in creative ways.
2. It isn't possible to build a fully consonant system of intervals AND also have the intervals keep the correct ratios for all possible key centers. That is, if we build a system of intervals where every interval is the most possible consonant ratios, and then change the keys, all of the intervals become messed up. A perfectly tuned system of intervals is called just intonation. If you create such a perfect system of intervals for one key (say 'C major') and then try to play music on the same instrument in a different key (say 'B minor'), you find all of your intervals are now messed up. In order to make this easier, you want to have an instrument that can play in all possible keys equally, so what you do is take all of these various errors and spread them out more-or-less evenly over each interval, so that every interval is a little bit wrong, but not wrong enough to sound bad. There are lots of ways to do this, but modern music is generally tuned to 12-tone equal temperament, which seems to work well for most instruments.

@Jayron32: Strictly speaking, it is possible if you allow an unlimited number of notes (but then you often end up accumulating tiny little intervals called commas, until where you end up is probably not where you started, because there are no more enharmonic equivalents) – and also strictly speaking, if you have only 12 notes you cannot even have the intervals keep the correct ratio in one key centre, because if you have a C major scale, you cannot simultaneously have a just F-major triad (F = 4/3, A = 5/3, C = 2) and a just D-minor triad (D = 9/8, F = 4/3, A = 27/16) unless you accept having two different A's which differ by the syntonic comma 81:80. This syntonic comma provides a long-known example of the first situation: in the example given at right by Giovanni Benedetti in 1563, the A in the soprano must be a perfect fifth over the D in the bass and alto and a major sixth above the C in the bass; since the A comes first and the C can match it later, the C ends up being raised up by one syntonic comma (symbolised as a '+' accidental), and then we repeat the cycle four times until the G we end up with has gone up almost one equal-tempered semitone. (I copied the picture and some of the caption from Comma (music).) Double sharp (talk) 06:48, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

1. In terms of labeling these notes, the letters assigned to the notes are set up to match the C majordiatonic scale. The reason for this is long and convoluted and took many hundreds of years of history, so is probably outside of the scope of this discussion. Since there are 7 notes in the diatonic scale, you need 5 more notes to get a full 12 notes, so the system of sharps and flats is used to indicate the missing notes from that scale. To change keys, you keep the same intervals but you change where you start counting from. --Jayron32 16:19, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

Hope that all helps! --Jayron32 16:19, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

2606:A000:1126:28D:7931:7AE7:6D26:288 (talk) 16:32, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

The scale is traditionally built up from powers of 3, dividing by enough powers of 2 to make all the notes fit into the interval 1:2. The first five notes thus obtained are

• 1/1, 9/8, 81/64, 3/2, 27/16, (2/1)

or equivalently (by rotation)

• 1/1, 9/8, 4/3, 3/2, 16/9, (2/1)

The smallest interval among these is 8:9. One more step gives

• 1/1, 9/8, 4/3, 3/2, 27/16, 16/9, (2/1)

Now the smallest interval is 243:256 (approx 19:20), less than half (measured by logarithms) of the previously smallest interval. That may be why many traditions stop at a pentatonic scale.

Go two more steps, to eight notes, and the smallest interval doesn't get smaller but now you have two adjacent small steps, which add up to the biggest step (8:9) of the seven-tone scale. I guess that last note was considered melodically superfluous, a good reason to stop at seven.

And if you continue to thirteen notes, the newest note creates an interval of 524288:531441 (approx 73:74), which is less than a third of the previous smallest interval, and also only slightly more than the amount by which 81/64 is flatted to make the harmonious 5/4, so that last note is really useless.

Thus there are good reasons for scales of five, seven and twelve tones, unequally spaced – and a legitimate motive, stated elsewhere, to bend the twelve for equal spacing. —Tamfang (talk) 20:45, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

Further to fretted instruments, as mentioned by Jayron above, there are such things as true temperament guitars, which incorporate really odd-looking frets. We don't have an article (yet), but examples can be found on YouTube, as for example in the demonstration video here. {The poster formerly known as 87.8`1.230.195} 2.122.61.224 (talk) 01:01, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

I wish the video said something about the theory of that fretboard; what does it optimize? — If I could play guitar I'd definitely want a custom fretboard made to my theoretical improvement on meantone. — Recently I went looking for electric baroque videos and was disappointed to see no guitar with non-factory frets! —Tamfang (talk) 02:59, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

Tamfang, If you search on YouTube for 'True temperament guitar' you should see quite a number of other videos on the subject, some of which do go into the theory more. One such came up as a suggestion to me a week or so ago, before which I'd never heard of them: I linked the one above merely because it was the first on the list when i searched again because of the query here. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.122.61.224 (talk) 15:20, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

..which lead me to 'xenharmonic' (as if things weren't complicated enough). 2606:A000:1126:28D:7931:7AE7:6D26:288 (talk) 03:34, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

My guess with that guitar is that it is optimized for playing barre chords. He mentions several times about the major third interval being better. In standard tuning, when playing an 'E' chord and on barre chords built on the 'E', the major third is on the 'G' string, which you'll notice is where the fret is bent on all of the strings. The deal is (and remember, he's trying to sell you on this guitar) the fact that the third occurs on that string is basically unique to the open 'E' chord and on 'E'-shaped barre chords. On other chords, the major third would not necessarily appear on that string. That string may have a fifth or an octave or something like that; or what about extended chords with sevenths and ninths, or suspended chords with seconds and fourths? That bent fret would not necessarily have the 'correct' spacing for THOSE intervals. So now what? Someone has built a guitar better optimized for a very narrow set of chords. But you've probably made it worse for other applications. The other issue with an electric guitar is that many styles of music don't use thirds in that way. Jazz famously uses lots of chord extensions and chord suspensions. Also, any time you're playing music with heavy Distortion or overdrive, as in hard rock or heavy metal, you'll usually want to play with power chords because the distortion contains extra frequencies that clash in horrible ways with the third. This is NOT a symptom of the intonation of the guitar; even a perfectly tuned major third would have these problems. A power chord has no third interval. So you aren't even playing that interval on many types of music that one would use that instrument for. Basically, it feels to me like someone fixed a minor problem, and in doing so created bigger problems. --Jayron32 12:36, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

What would a 3:2:1 hard rock or metal chord sound like? I suppose you could have a not bass guitar play what the bass plays but at 6:4:2? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 00:27, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

What do you mean by 3:2:1 chord? Do you mean a root, a fifth and an octave? That's basically what every heavy metal rhythm guitar has played, like, ever. That's what a power chord is. Tune to drop-d tuning and you can play that with one finger. 6:4:2 is the exact same ratio. Bass guitarists don't usually play triads other than Lemmy, so if you want to know what a bass player sounds like playing power chords, listen to some Motorhead. If that isn't what you mean, can you use the correct terminology so we all can respond to your question? --Jayron32 01:17, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

No, root, octave, and 3 times the hertz of the root. And I suppose you could have a higher-pitched guitar play 2 times the bass root's hertz, 4 times and 6 times but I didn't know that bass guitars didn't usually play triads. What chords do they play? 4 notes? 2? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 02:05, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Because of octave equivalence (notes a whole number of octaves apart sound equivalent), your root-octave-twelfth chord of 1:2:3 is essentially identical to a power chord. (It is not really a chord in the traditional sense but an interval/dyad, since if you discard octave doublings it is just a perfect fifth, but within the context of the musical language it is found in it acts enough like a chord to justify the name.) Double sharp (talk) 04:52, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Bass guitarists usually play melody lines known as basslines. The role of a bass player is to 1) provide harmonic accompaniment to the upper register instruments and 2) provide rhythmic structure along with the drummer. Basically, the bass is the bridge between the drummer and the more midrange instruments such as guitar and vocals. Bass players will sometimes play double stops, but really they mostly play single-note melody lines. That's because of the sonic properties of the bass guitar: the attack and sonic spectrum of the notes of a bass don't really play chords well. Full triads played on bass guitar tend to sound muddy and indistinct. Bass guitars changed a bit in the mid-1960s with the advent of new pickup, effects pedal, and amplification techniques that added significant midrange to bass guitars, and allowed the advent of the power trio where the bass takes up some of the role of the rhythm guitarist in rock ensembles. You can hear this in the bass guitar tones in bands like Cream and Motorhead, where the bass has a fuller tone and where the bassist plays more double stops and even triads. --Jayron32 11:58, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Western classical music, the tradition in which the piano evolved as an instrument, is based on triads. There are two kinds of triads, called major and minor. Both triads are approximations of the chord formed by harmonics 1, 3, and 5 of a note (you need three to make a triad; the even harmonics are discovered because of something called octave equivalence: multiplying a frequency by any power of two makes it sound like an equivalent, even if non-identical note). The major triad is a closer approximation. The first harmonic is called the tonic: it is the basis of the triad. The third harmonic is called the 'dominant' and the fifth harmonic is called the 'mediant'. Confusingly, the interval the third harmonic forms from the tonic is called the 'fifth', and the interval the fifth harmonic forms from the tonic is called a 'third'. The number names are reversed because of their positions in the major scale.

As Tamfang has explained, the major scale is theoretically made from a stack of third harmonics up and down from the tonic (i.e. multiplying the frequency by 3/2), and has a major triad on the note it is based on (called the tonic). If you stack four 3/2 fifths, you get to 81/64 (octave equivalence lets you insert as many factors of 2 as you wish), which is close to 80/64 = 5/4; therefore we 'fudge' the intervals away from an exact 3/2 and 5/4 to make this exact. (This is called tempering out the syntonic comma of 81/80, i.e. setting the difference between the 80th and 81st harmonics to zero, and distorting the factors of 3 and 5 to match.) And if you keep stacking ideal 3/2 fifths indefinitely, at the twelfth fifth you get something very close to the original note, and so we traditionally distort every fifth very slightly to make this correspondence exact, and declare that our musical universe consists only of these twelve notes (and of course, any power of two times their frequencies, so really these are twelve types of notes). (This is called tempering out the Pythagorean comma of 531441/524288.) So a major triad is not really formed from frequencies k, 3k, and 5k, but rather of the close approximations k, 2^19/12k ≈ 2.9966k, and 2^28/12k ≈ 5.0397k. These subtitutes are close enough for the ear to accept as standing for 3k and 5k, but allow for a richer musical language; it also helps that twelve notes is a good number for categorical perception (fewer types of notes and there's not enough richness; many more types of notes and it becomes difficult to tell which is which if they go by quickly).

Why then is the major scale made from five third harmonics up from the tonic and only one down? Because the 'upward', 'dominant', or 'sharp' direction (e.g. 3/2 as a fifth over a note) is stronger than the 'downward', 'subdominant', or 'flat' direction (4/3 as a fifth under a note, equivalent to a fourth over it). This is expected because harmonics rise from a note. Since the major scale is so fundamental, the piano keyboard gives the notes of one particular major scale a privileged position on the white keys, while the other five notes are black keys. (Other major scales of course have to mix white and black keys.) The notes inside a scale are called diatonic; the notes outside a scale are called chromatic. Chromatic notes are dissonant, which means that they have to resolve (traditionally stepwise, meaning to an adjacent note) to a diatonic note. But even diatonic notes can be dissonant and have to resolve stepwise. In effect, everything in a Western classical piece of music is theoretically dissonant to the tonic triad, and to make grammatical sense the piece must end there. (See the disclaimer at the bottom about this applying only in its strictest form to the so-called Classical period of about the 1770s to the 1820s, but that is in a way the theoretically most fundamental use case.)

In music, we traditionally single out one major scale and call its tonic 'C'. We then use the letters A through G to name the rest of its notes in such a way that when we force all seven notes in this stack of fifths within one range of frequencies from k to 2k (where k is the frequency of C), they go alphabetically from C to C (due to tradition; they wrap around from G back to A). So the notes are C, D, E, F, G, A, and B; they are generated by stacking fifths on top of and below C. Stacking fifths above C leads to G, D, A, E, and finally B; one fifth below C leads to F. This is why we name the intervals this way: G is the fifth note in a scale starting on C. (So the intervals C-D, C-E, C-F, C-G, C-A, and C-B are respectively a second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, and seventh; C to the next C, a frequency doubling is called an octave, from the Latin root 'octo' for eight. You can keep going with the number names; two octaves make a fifteenth, an octave and a fifth make a twelfth, and so on – yes, there is basically a fencepost error here due to inclusive counting. But normally past the fifteenth you use constructions like 'two octaves plus a third' rather than force everyone to count how much a seventeenth is.) You can build a triad on any one of these seven notes simply by picking alternate members of the scale: the triad on C is C-E-G, that on D is D-F-A, and so on. (But note that these are two different kinds of triad; the first is a major triad and the second is a minor triad. More on this below. As you wrap around, for example, the triad on G is G-B-D.)

In the pentatonic scale we stop at C, G, D, A, and E, because that is the maximum number of fifths we can stack and end up with no adjacent notes, a condition called anhemitonia. In the major scale we have seven notes, because that is the maximum number of fifths we can stack and end up with no three consecutive notes from our universe of twelve, a condition called ancohemitonia. The major scale stops stacking fifths when it gets to B because this note happens to be directly adjacent to and below the tonic C, which gives it a powerful pull towards the tonic; this is called a leading note and is a dissonance essential for a strong harmonic feeling in Western classical music. (It also happens to be the fifth harmonic of G, the dominant, which strengthens it.) As we can see, harmonic feeling and movement in music is conditioned both by triads and by the scale; these sometimes work together and sometimes don't, creating tension. The other important point about this note B is that since it is the highest note in our stack of fifths, it doesn't have a real (technically called perfect) fifth above it; B to F is one note short of being a perfect fifth. This is called a diminished fifth or tritone and is a very dissonant interval indeed. Often this dissonant triad on B is united with the dominant triad on G to create what is called the dominant seventh chord G-B-D-F (it's a seventh because its outermost notes are a seventh apart), a powerful dissonance that heightens the pull towards resolution to the tonic. (This resolution is stepwise, as G is common to both chords and can be left out as implied, and then B, D, and F respectively go to C, C, and E.) Stacking a further third creates the even more powerful dominant ninth chord G-B-D-F-A and its curtailed half-diminished seventh chord B-D-F-A.

If we continue on beyond B and beyond F we get onto the missing 'black notes' of the scale. We name these by analogy. If a fifth above A is E, then a fifth above B must be some kind of F. But it's not actually F – that's one step too low. So we call it F-sharp, symbolised F♯. And then we can continue stacking fifths to F♯, C♯, G♯, D♯, A♯, E♯, and B♯, at which point we have traversed all twelve notes and arrived back at C = B♯ (we already knew this, of course, because B was adjacent to C). In fact F = E♯ as well. This is why you don't have black keys between E/F and B/C on a piano (your original question): they are already adjacent in our twelve-tone universe, so there is no need for anything in between. (If we were to continue stacking fifths beyond B♯, we would have to arrive at F-double-sharp for similar reasons, which we symbolise F, and then continue to B. Normally musicians do not go far enough to necessitate going another round into triple sharps. ^_^ These are important because you may want to use any note as a basis for a major scale, and you want the seven-different-letters pattern to work right. So if you started a major scale on G♯, it would need to stack five fifths above it for the sharp notes, which would have to take you to F for the leading note. You don't usually need triple sharps because you'd much rather for easy reading begin a major scale on A than on G. ^_^)

Similarly, if a fifth below G is C, then a fifth below F must be some kind of B. But it's not actually B – that's one step too high. So we call it B-flat, symbolised B♭. And then we can continue stacking fifths to E♭, A♭, D♭, G♭, C♭, F♭ – and now we need double flats to continue, which are symbolised in the obvious way. So we go on to B, E, A, and D = C (because we have again gone through all twelve notes). (And by filling in equivalents upwards we also see A = G, E = D, and so on until we again get C♭ = B and F♭ = E as expected, providing another demonstration of why there aren't any black keys between E/F and B/C. Again, normally musicians do not go far enough to necessitate going another round into triple flats.) This closed chain of fifths is called the circle of fifths. We use both sharp and flat names for notes, even though they refer to the same pitch, because their semantic meaning is different: E-G♯ is a kind of third, but E-A♭ is a kind of fourth, and from the context you can distinguish them by meaning even without any audible difference in pitch (like homophones).

Now I mentioned that there are two kinds of triads: major (like C-E-G) and minor (like D-F-A). In a major scale you will find two kinds of intervals that differ in size but are approximately identified as within the same category: for example, C-E and E-G are both three-note intervals, or 'thirds', but the first one is bigger; these are called a major third and a minor third respectively). Because the ear can identify these as roughly equivalent, we can exchange the places of the major and the minor third in the major triad to make a minor triad. A major triad has a major third below a minor third; a minor triad has a minor third below a major third. A minor triad on C is hence C-E♭-G (by the rule of having all seven letters used, the mediant must be some form of E; E is one note too high, so it's E-flat). We can then fill in a natural minor scale that theoretically goes two fifths above the tonic and four fifths below it. Starting on C this is C-D-E♭-F-G-A♭-B♭-C; on A it nicely is on the white keys as A-B-C-D-E-F-G-A. But the minor triad is a poorer approximation of the harmonic series than the major one (its approximation to 5 is 2^27/12 ≈ 4.7568, which is close but sounds audibly one semitone different; it is frankly more of an approximation to 4 * 6/5 = 4.8, the minor-third distance between the 5th and 6th harmonics as it should be). To make it a functional scale, you must make many notes variable and hence chromatic. To add a leading note you must raise B♭ to B; but that creates an awkwardly large gap to A♭, which is sometimes raised to A as well; and sometimes you want a fifth below A♭ to get a strong upper leading tone and have D♭ instead of D. (But sometimes you do want that B-A♭ gap as a powerful dissonance, as part of the diminished seventh chord B-D-F-A♭!) The first two are standard alterations that create what are called the harmonic minor scale C-D-E♭-F-G-A♭-B-C and a melodic minor scale C-D-E♭-F-G-A-B-C; the last alteration is generally considered chromatic, this flattened second note being called the Neapolitan scale degree. In general the harmonic minor scale is the closest fit to actual practice in terms of what is used for pieces in minor, but this poorer approximation and chromatic variability (not to mention the fact that the altered notes in the minor scale are all in the weaker 'downward' flat direction) means that the minor mode is more unstable and expressive than the major. Indeed, pieces in minor often end in major, which acts like a resolution (in the simplest form, ending with a major triad after a lot of minor-key music, it is called the Picardy third); theoretically speaking, they are different modes, but they have the same tonic and can loosely be considered the same key.

Note that what I have given above is an account of tonality (the technical name for this musical system based on triads) as it was conceived in about the 1770s through 1820s (the so-called Classical period of classical music), where keys and harmonic forces are the most clearly defined. What happened beforehand and afterwards is less clearly hierarchical, but I think the basics are where to start here. (You can find a more advanced look at the axiomatic principles of tonality and equal temperament in Charles Rosen's famous book The Classical Style on pp. 23–29, which is a source for many of the things I have stated in the last few paragraphs.) Double sharp (talk) 06:36, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Metal ammine complex for iron[edit]

Can ferrous hydroxide solution (freshly prepared) form ammine complex on adding ammonia solution? If not, how can an iron ammine complex be obtained? Thanks!--93.122.251.81 (talk) 01:31, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

Iron ammine complexes can be formed by adding liquid ammonia to anhydrous ferrous compounds. It can yield a hexaammine. The problem if you have water or hydroxide around is that you form the highly insoluble iron hydroxides. You may also be able to get some ammine action with aqueous ammonia that is saturated with ammonia at lowish temperature. This should be easier to handle than fully liquid ammonia, but safety precautions have to be taken because of fumes and caustic nature. This is from Advanced Inorganic Chemistry by Cotton and Wilkinson Graeme Bartlett (talk) 06:41, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

This paper https://doi.org/10.1021/i260041a028 talks about how much ammonia with water it takes to make an ammine complex out of ferrous hydroxide. You can get around 60 g/l of iron as an ammine complex dissolved. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 06:57, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

Alkali metals alloys with Fe[edit]

Are there any data regarding the properties of (binary) alloys of iron with alkali metals (Li, Na, K, Cs,..)? (Thanks!)--93.122.248.53 (talk) 18:30, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

One problem is that the alkali metals are vapour before iron melts. However under pressure something may happen. eg here: https://doi.org/10.1016/j.pepi.2006.08.005 potassium can be 25 ppm in molten iron. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 00:42, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

How about the use of iron powder to be mixed with solid alkali metals (at normal pressures), perhaps by using powder metallurgy? Is there any data re miscibility in solid state?--93.122.248.53 (talk) 13:26, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

This seems relevant to the OP's research; it list the solubility of various metals (from Beryllium to Osmium) and their solubility in various liquid alkali metals. Even though they are not liquid at the same temperature ranges, presumably if you can get the solid iron to dissolve in liquid alkali metal, you can then cool the system and create some sort of alloy. --Jayron32 14:03, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

Amalgams are made by dissolving solid [metal] in liquid mercury, with no need to melt [metal] first. Here's a report of an alloy that includes both scandium (mp 1814 K) and lithium (bp 1603 K). DMacks (talk) 23:21, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

Since the alkali metal vapours have been mentioned above, what can said about sparging/bubbling some alkali metal vapour through molten iron (of course in an atmosphere without oxygen), than followed by solidification?--93.122.248.53 (talk) 14:30, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

Iron-Binary Phase Diagrams by O. Kubaschewski may give some information, in particular, solubility at different temperatures. At Amazon here [1] and Google Books here [2].--Wikimedes (talk) 17:14, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Information on New Zealand meteorologist N. G. Robertson[edit]

New Zealand meterologist N. G. Robertson is the author of several publications. His full name is Neil George Robertson, and he 'Assistant Director (Climatology), Meteorological Service, Department of Civil Aviation, Wellington'. But is there any chance to find basic biographical data and information him? --KnightMove (talk) 22:10, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

Solubility of transition metals like Fe, Cu, Ni, Zn in liquid ammonia[edit]

What info is there about the solubility of some transition metals Fe, Cu, Ni and other in liquid ammonia, (perhaps) with formation of metal amides?(Thanks!)--93.122.248.53 (talk) 17:23, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

Iron is used for fittings when handling ammonia, so I suspect it's not soluble. DMacks (talk) 10:00, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

Haber process to produce ammonia use iron-based catalyst in a steel reactor Gem fr (talk) 23:28, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

Liquid ammonia or aqueous?--93.122.251.35 (talk) 19:18, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

Liquid (and gas). Product advisories also note that Cu and Zn should be avoided, but only mentions them in the context of ammonia absorbing water that leads to attacking them. DMacks (talk) 21:21, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

What is the situation in the case of copper (which seems to be attacked by ammonia solution)?--93.122.251.35 (talk) 19:23, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

Why don't hurricane hunters use turbofans?[edit]

Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 22:03, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

To do what? ←Baseball Bugs^{What's up, Doc?}carrots→ 00:18, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

See hurricane hunters. 2606:A000:1126:28D:7931:7AE7:6D26:288 (talk) 02:32, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

Because they don't need to? If range, maximum load, and ability to stay in the air for long periods of time are top priorities, while maximum speed and maximum altitude are not, it is a sensible decision. Someguy1221 (talk) 03:16, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

Although many different aircraft are used for various hurricane spotting missions, the most famous ones are the C-130 and its variants that are operated by the US Air Force. The C-130 isn't just a turboprop: it's a well-loved airframe that is notoriously tough: it's a reliable aircraft that can be trusted in difficult weather conditions. This is probably the airframe that most people think of when they think 'hurricane hunter,' but it is only one of many.

You can read more about the WC-130J Hercules from the website of the 403rd Wing 53rd Weather Reconnaissance Squadron; and the WP-3D Orion operated by NOAA's civilian airborne corps; and of course, there is also the NOAA Gulfstream IV hurricane hunter that does, in fact, have two Fuselage Mounted Rolls Royce Tay 611-8 twin spool turbofan jet engines.

Nimur (talk) 03:49, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

Do they fly into Cat 5s with only 2 engines? It must be unnerving if they've ever lost one in a storm. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 05:16, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

Keep in mind that it's only the speed of the plane relative to the wind that matters as far as turbulence goes. So, if they fly around the hurricane at approximately the same speed (allowing enough difference to provide the needed lift) and direction as the wind, it might not be a bad ride at all, and they could quickly get where they are going. Flying directly into the wind, on the other hand, might be bad thing, as the plane may actually end up standing still or going backwards relative to the ground, which makes it difficult to get where they are going (although if the goal is to stay aloft a long time to observe conditions, and not to actually go anywhere, this option might work). I also sure hope they have working onboard radar, as two planes going in opposite directions under zero visibility conditions sounds like a recipe for a collision. Flying at a right angle to the wind may be worst of all, as planes aren't able to handle those kinds of cross winds, so spiralling in and out may be necessary. If they needed to make an emergency water landing, it sure would be important to get behind the hurricane first, as it would be difficult to survive a water landing in a hurricane. SinisterLefty (talk) 06:32, 27 August 2019 (UTC)f

┌─────────────────────────┘Planes are generally not destroyed by strong winds while in flight. Multiengine aircraft are designed to operate (with reduced performance) when a single engine fails; but as the NOAA website says, 'pilots and crew routinely (but never casually) fly in the high-wind environment of the hurricane and don't fear it..'

A book that has been popping up in various discussion this week is the classic: Fate Is The Hunter; if you're interested in airplanes, this one is a great read. It's not really about hurricane hunters, but it's pretty relevant.

Nimur (talk) 14:38, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

What's the ratio of nephron / Glomerulus?[edit]

What's the ratio of nephron / Glomerulus? Is it 1/1? (each nephron has 1 glamerulus). I tried to get this information on the nephron article but I couldn't find it.93.126.116.89 (talk) 23:48, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

The info is in Glomerulus (kidney). Yes. Gem fr (talk) 07:05, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

What happens when you mix sodium bicarbonate and monosaccharides in water?[edit]

A simple chemistry question: What molecules are produced in the interaction of a water-solution of sodium bicarbonate and monosaccharides? Jukeboksi (talk) 10:37, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Probably nothing that interesting. Some small amount of deprotonation of the monosaccharides is possible due to the raised pH the bicarbonate causes, but I can't think of any significant chemical reactions the sodium bicarbonate would do to change the main structure of the monosacharide. --Jayron32 12:26, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Maybe an effect on the pyranose/furanose/open-chain equilibrium in certain cases? DMacks (talk) 13:36, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Certainly stronger bases could, but even saturated sodium carbonate solution wouldn't be able to raise the pH enough to do that. --Jayron32 15:34, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

My only data point at hand is that rates of mutarotation vary substantially with even a 0.1 or 0.2 pH-unit change in the weak-acid range, occurring via the transiently-existing open-chain form.[3] Presumably it accelerates further at weak-base pH. No idea whether there is any effect on the relative stabilities of the anomers. DMacks (talk) 17:03, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Na⁺ (140mM), HCO₃^- (25mM) and monosaccharides like glucose (>4mM) float around in our plasma without reacting. Klbrain (talk) 23:20, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Unrinsed hands[edit]

General wisdom says that remnants of soap after washing and drying one's hands without rinsing out all the soap with water can itch. What's the physical mechanism behind this itch? Is soap somehow toxic? 93.136.143.215 (talk) 12:30, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

I thought you were saying 'urinised' hands there. For this you might get a white crust on your skin, with an article here: uremia. However to get your wanted answer it is very simple to search on Google with 'itch caused by soap' and it seems to be due to dry skin. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 12:43, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Whether it is drying depends on the type of 'soap' used. Detergents (common in liquid 'soaps') can be drying, especially if they include alcohol to kill bacteria. Some solid soaps, on the other hand, contain moisturizers, like Dove. SinisterLefty (talk) 13:38, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

You mean soaps with moisturizers don't typically cause itching? 93.136.2.166 (talk) 03:58, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

If dry skin is the cause, then moisturizers should fix that. But if there is some other cause, it won't. SinisterLefty (talk) 04:03, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

What's the highest molecular weight artificial amino acid?[edit]

Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 18:41, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

I don't think that's even a meaningful question. There is probably a 'largest thing commonly referred to as an amino acid', but since the R group can be literally anything, there is no size limit. If you want to be ridiculous, an entire network of covalently bonded proteins could be described as 'the side chain' of a cysteine that connects by a disulfide bridge. Someguy1221 (talk) 20:14, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

What is the largest thing commonly referred to as an amino acid that has been synthesized? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 21:13, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Are you restricting to alpha? Bucky amino acids (doi: 10.1039/B614298B) are pretty large. DMacks (talk) 21:32, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

What is the heaviest with a side chain only on the alpha carbon? Would proteins made from buckyball amino acids taste more like food or more like purified charcoal? (tasteless and odorless right?) Do they have any calories? Toxicity? Do they look black? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 13:50, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

Scented bleach[edit]

How is the lemon scent, etc., not oxidized and destroyed by the bleach ? SinisterLefty (talk) 00:14, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

Not all chemicals are oxidizable by hypochlorite (the usual chemical in traditional 'bleach'), and there are alternate bleaching agents that can/can't react with different sets of chemicals. Looking at the ton of different chemicals that Clorox might use as fragrance, I see a lot that don't have any obvious reactivity with hypochlorite..ketones, esters, carboxylic acids, and phenols for example. DMacks (talk) 00:36, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

Thanks. Does that mean any microbes could evolve a shell of any of those chemicals, and thus survive exposure to bleach ? SinisterLefty (talk) 01:26, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

At least become more resistant, sure. Can't remember which HSP is especially activated in response (hypochlorite is part of our immune system). And some can form films that protect their colonies. DMacks (talk) 02:13, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

Also, that's assuming that these compounds are in any way suitable to making these 'shells.' I would guess that they are not. --OuroborosCobra (talk) 15:46, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

Citrus scented chlorine bleaches usually contain limonene, which does react with both chlorine and hypochlorite. However, this reaction apparently proceeds at a very slow rate, if at all, when the pH of the solutions and concentrations of bleach and limonene are kept at certain values. Here is one patent that describes some experiments in this [4], though they do not really explain the chemistry. There is an abundance of chemistry papers describing the halogenation of limonene, but I cannot locate any that tried to find or explain conditions where the reaction didn't happen. Someguy1221 (talk) 01:23, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

I still painfully remember a failed test in chemistry for having disregarded chemical kineticsGem fr (talk) 01:28, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

An experiment that disregards chemical kinetics could be far more painful, say if you tossed a large quantity of elemental sodium into water: [5]. SinisterLefty (talk) 16:14, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

Jesus. Someone strike this video of a man holding sodium with bare hand. Not that dangerous, not such disregard of basic security measure is just .. Gem fr (talk) 18:55, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

It's a matter of how much scent remains after a reasonable shelf life, I guess. Remember, most scents work in micromolar quantities, so it's possible to load a gallon of bleach up with enough scent at manufacture that while in use it keeps its scent despite some of it reacting with the hypochlorous acid continually. --loupgarous (talk) 02:16, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

'loading bleach up with enough scent' won't help. There is so much oxidizer in bleach (that is the very point of bleach) that, if the reaction proceeds, you cannot rely on a large enough supply of scent to have some of it survive. Only low speed of the oxidation makes it possible. Gem fr (talk) 18:11, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

In the case of limonene, this actually can't work, as the space between 'so dilute it's basically useless' and 'so concentrated it's overwhelming' is surprisingly narrow, at least in straightforward bleach solutions. Someguy1221 (talk) 08:18, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

I don't know why cleaning chemical companies even bother, it doesn't reduce their shit smell for me. Reminds me of some baby boomers who wear perfume so strong and laden with chemical notes that I'm amazed they attract more men that way. Some of their pheromones even attract me and they're utterly hiding them with that crap. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 14:12, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

People buy it, they sell. Plus, they charge more, not significantly more for the buyer, but significantly more than the cost of the scent. Bleach is so inexpensive, the margin are so small, anything boosting the profit is good enough.

Gem fr (talk) 18:11, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

Did they do mopping tests on which pleasant smelling chemicals make bleach smell least bad? I guess that's the best they can do that isn't too expensive? I just use isopropanol when I want something cleaned to the point of disinfection. Smells better. They make isopropanol sprays too. Refill it with more isopropanol so you only have to be overcharged for the spray bottle once. They make it hard to open but it can be done. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 01:05, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

In the case of citrus smells, the fragrance molecules are also surfactants, and will dissolve oils off of many surfaces. They'll call it 'scented', but the scent was going to be there anyway given what the active ingredients are. Someguy1221 (talk) 08:24, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

Bright, shiny objects[edit]

Huge hoard of Norman coins found in Somerset shows coins being plucked from the ground in remarkably (suspiciously, to me) shiny condition. Is it possible that coins from Norman England (c.800+ years ago) would remain in such condition? What sort of alloy would they have used? If they were primarily silver, wouldn't they essentially be black blobs by now? Secondarily, most of the whole coins seem to be bent in the middle, with many others being split in half; was it common to split coins ('ha'penny')? 2606:A000:1126:28D:C11B:68F2:2FB:1B34 (talk) 18:24, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

The conservation of silver coins depends on the soil, and silver resist pretty well to oxydation (not as well as gold, but, still) (one of the reason to make coins out of it) so you may want to check the soil, but not suspicious per se. Bending coins was a way to check they were legit. Splitting coins was common enough https://www.cointalk.com/threads/medieval-cut-pennies.266902/Gem fr (talk) 19:14, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

Most of silver tarnish is caused by hydrogen sulfide and some soils are practically anoxic. So leaving it in the same room as an egg or fart might be worse than leaving it outside in a wilderness. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 23:53, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

Indeed, there are soils in which silver remains untarnished by sulfur, varying by local ph and redox potential. See [6] on the conditions required for the oxidation of silver, and [7] for a neat graph showing the typical range of soil properties. Someguy1221 (talk) 08:11, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

Cant wear silver[edit]

I have met several people and have observed for myself that they are not able to wear silver. A close friend of mine is not able to wear gold or silver, but only white gold or platinum. If he wears silver is will tarnish to black within 24 hours or less, leaving a black mark on say a finger where the ring was. If earrings are left in they will start to fester just as quickly. Gold for my friend is worse and if worn as a ring can cause blisters and if in earrings can cause festering within hours. Is this a known side effect and why does this happen to him? Is this common? Can something be done to prevent this? Why does this not happen with white gold? His Aunt has the same affliction. If she tries on a piece of jewellery just for a moment, the gold necklace, when observed the next day will be tarnished and black, even though she only wore it for a minute or two. Thanks Anton 81.131.40.58 (talk) 07:31, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

It is possible to be allergic to a metal, an example of allergic contact dermatitis (mechanistically, the allergenic epitope is typically some dissolved metal ion bound to a protein). Since jewelry is usually some type of metal alloy, someone who reacts to wearing it would need to visit a doctor to find out precisely what they are reacting to. That is, a 'gold' necklace could well contain copper, nickel, silver, or other metals. White golds are a different group of alloys as compared to yellow golds, and are also typically plated with another metal, so it's not surprising there would be a difference. 'White gold' is also sometimes a reference to platinum. The blackening of silver is a result of sulfur tarnishing, and the sulfur content of skin/sweat can vary considerably from person to person, as well as in one person over time or with different diets. If someone is unable to wear jewelry but wants to, they should really visit a doctor to find out what's happening. If a person knows they are allergic to a certain metal, but they still want to wear it, they can talk to a jeweler - there are coatings that can be applied to metal jewelry to prevent the skin from coming into contact with the metal. Someguy1221 (talk) 07:58, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

Multiple integration tricks[edit]

Envision Math Problem Solving Handbook For The Recently Deceased Children

If I wanted to integrate something like cos(ax+by+cz) or exp(ax+by+cz) over the unit ball, I could simply apply a coordinate rotation to make the vector (a,b,c) point along one of the axes, and then it'd become easy. Is there a trick to make this work for doing something like x cos(ax+by+cz) or x exp(ax+by+cz) over the same region? Normally in 1D you'd use integration by parts for products xe^ax, but in 3D I can't rotate to make the argument look nice without messing up the other factor. Double sharp (talk) 10:31, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

But you should 'mess up' the other factor if it simplifies what's in the exponential! I assume you want something more than just splitting the exponential into factors.--Jasper Deng(talk) 10:37, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

Your integrals can be re-written as:

${\displaystyle \underset{\mathbf{r}=1}{\text{∮}}({\mathbf{r}\mathbf{e}}_x)\exp (\mathbf{a}\mathbf{r})dS,}$ and

${\displaystyle \underset{\mathbf{r}=1}{\text{∮}}({\mathbf{r}\mathbf{e}}_x)\cos (\mathbf{a}\mathbf{r})dS,}$

which means averaging over the unit sphere. You can try to calculate them using the spherical coordinates. Ruslik_Zero 12:34, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

@Ruslik0: Could you walk me through the first few steps of this? If I try to simplify that dot product by coordinate rotation before converting to spherical coordinates (which is the trick I saw for the analogous easy integral without that r·e_x factor, I end up with my original problem of messing up the e_x component outside; is this the way I should go, or should I try to convert to spherical coordinates first? (I've been trying to teach myself some basic multivariable calculus over the last few days and got through the usual basic stuff about changing coordinates for multiple integrals that lets you do the analogous integrals without those x factors easily, so if the problem is that I'm asking something that becomes clear with some more advanced stuff please do tell me what I should be looking at.) Double sharp (talk) 16:24, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

@Double sharp: Hint: use the cosine formula for the dot product.--Jasper Deng(talk) 18:26, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

You can even consider a more general problem with arbitrary vectors a and b:

${\displaystyle \underset{\mathbf{r}=1}{\text{∮}}(\mathbf{r}\mathbf{b})\exp (\mathbf{a}\mathbf{r})dS=\frac{d}{d\lambda }{\left[\underset{\mathbf{r}=1}{\text{∮}}\exp (\lambda \mathbf{b}\mathbf{r}+\mathbf{a}\mathbf{r})dS\right]}_{\lambda =0}=4\pi \frac{d}{d\lambda }{\left[\frac{\sinh \lambda \mathbf{b}+\mathbf{a}}{\lambda \mathbf{b}+\mathbf{a}}\right]}_{\lambda =0}=4\pi \frac{\mathbf{a}\cosh \mathbf{a}-\sinh \mathbf{a}}{\mathbf{a}{}^3}(\mathbf{a}\mathbf{b}).}$

Ruslik_Zero 20:23, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

You want a trick to compute an integral of the form ${\displaystyle {\int }_B(u\cdot x)f((v\cdot x))dx}$, where ${\displaystyle B}$ is the Euclidean unit ball of ${\displaystyle {\mathbb{R}}^n}$, ${\displaystyle u}$ and ${\displaystyle v}$ are given vectors in ${\displaystyle {\mathbb{R}}^n}$ and ${\displaystyle (x\cdot y)=\sum _{j=1}^n{x}_j{y}_j}$ denotes the standard scalar product (in fact, there exist no such things as tricks in mathematics). As you recalled, for any rotation ${\displaystyle R\in O(n)}$ and any integrable function ${\displaystyle g}$ we have ${\displaystyle {\int }_{B}g(x)dx={\int }_{B}g(Rx)dx}$, by rotation invariance. This means that the value of your integral only depends, besides ${\displaystyle f}$, on the Euclidean norm of ${\displaystyle u}$ and of ${\displaystyle v}$, and their scalar product. Indeed, by a suitable rotation you may take ${\displaystyle u}$ to ${\displaystyle \Vert u\Vert e_1}$ and ${\displaystyle v}$ to ${\displaystyle \frac{(v\cdot u)}{\Vert u\Vert }{e}_1}$ plus something orthogonal to ${\displaystyle e_1}$.. or even its opposite, since there are enough rotations to do so. Since this 'something' enters linearly in the integral, we conclude it has no effect on it, so

${\displaystyle {\int }_B(u\cdot x)f((v\cdot x))dx=\frac{(v\cdot u)}{\Vert u\Vert }{\int }_B{x}_{1}f(\Vert u\Vert x_1)dx}$

By Fubini's theorem, denoting ${\displaystyle {\omega }_k=\frac{{\pi }^{k/2}}{\mathrm{\Gamma }(1+k/2)}}$ the k-volume of the unit ball of ${\displaystyle {\mathbb{R}}^k}$, we reduce to an integral on ${\displaystyle [-1,1]}$

${\displaystyle {\int }_B{x}_{1}f(\Vert u\Vert x_1)dx={\omega }_{n-1}{\int }_{-1}^{1}f(\Vert u\Vert t)(1-t^2{)}^{\frac{n-1}{2}}tdt.}$pma 20:43, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

Nitpick: the OP might be meaning the volume integral over the ball (not the surface integral over the sphere). But calculating either can yield the other with some work with the divergence theorem. Unfortunately, the cosine and exponential functions in three dimensions aren't harmonic, otherwise we could apply the mean-value property.--Jasper Deng(talk) 06:08, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

Ah – so the idea of coordinate rotation was right, but in my particular case I should be leaving the x-axis alone (in general I should rotate to make whatever vector I had in front simple, but since it was already i I don't need to do anything there), and then simply taking the x-component of a = (a,b,c) because the orthogonal components should have no effect? (And yes, I did mean the volume integral over the ball.) Trying this on the exponential problem I originally gave, x exp(ax+by+cz), I get ${\displaystyle {\int }_B(\mathbf{i}\cdot \mathbf{r})\exp (\mathbf{a}\cdot \mathbf{r})d\mathbf{r}=a{\int }_B(x\exp x)d\mathbf{r}=2\pi a{\int }_{r=0}^1{\int }_{\theta =0}^{\pi }(r^3\cos \theta \sin \theta )\exp (r\cos \theta )d\theta dr=2\pi a{\int }_{r=0}^1[r\exp (r\cos \theta )(1-r\cos \theta ){]}_{\theta =0}^{\pi }dr}$ (rotation invariance should let me simplify things a little by setting up spherical coordinates 'sideways' so that the x-axis points upwards, so that I can take x = r cos θ), and then after some algebra I got ${\displaystyle 2\pi a(\frac{e^2-7}{e})}$. That agrees with pma's general answer: as expected it only depends on ${\displaystyle \mathbf{a}\cdot \mathbf{i}=a}$. I notice that Ruslik0's answer depends on a and hence the other components of a as well: is that because he is integrating over the unit sphere instead? Double sharp (talk) 07:43, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

This is because your result is wrong. The correct one will be:

${\displaystyle \underset{\mathbf{r}\le 1}{\int }(\mathbf{r}\mathbf{b})\exp (\mathbf{a}\mathbf{r})dV=\frac{d}{d\lambda }{\left[\underset{\mathbf{r}\le 1}{\int }\exp (\lambda \mathbf{b}\mathbf{r}+\mathbf{a}\mathbf{r})dV\right]}_{\lambda =0}=4\pi \frac{d}{d\lambda }{\left[\underset{0}{\overset{1}{\int }}r\frac{\sinh r\lambda \mathbf{b}+\mathbf{a}}{\lambda \mathbf{b}+\mathbf{a}}dr\right]}_{\lambda =0}=4\pi \frac{d}{d\lambda }{\left[\frac{\cosh \lambda \mathbf{b}+\mathbf{a}}{\lambda \mathbf{b}+\mathbf{a}{}^2}-\frac{\sinh \lambda \mathbf{b}+\mathbf{a}}{\lambda \mathbf{b}+\mathbf{a}{}^3}\right]}_{\lambda =0}=4\pi \frac{(\mathbf{a}{}^2+3)\sinh \mathbf{a}-3\mathbf{a}\cosh \mathbf{a}}{\mathbf{a}{}^5}(\mathbf{a}\mathbf{b}).}$

Ruslik_Zero 17:59, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

@Ruslik0: Yeah, that does make a lot more sense: thank you for your help! I'll try the one with a cosine and come back with an answer. Double sharp (talk) 07:03, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

The integral with cosine is always zero. You would be better to try one with a sine. Ruslik_Zero 10:53, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

@Ruslik0: All right. On further study I think I may have to wait a bit before I see how to do this – I still don't really understand what's going on in your first two equalities. (And I only just got to the divergence theorem Jasper Deng mentioned today in my attempt at teaching myself multivariable calculus..certainly all this is interesting stuff, even if some of this a bit hard to wrap my head around the first time! ^_^) Double sharp (talk) 15:19, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

P.S. I understand what you mean about there being no 'tricks' here in mathematics: I should have phrased what I had in mind as 'insightful approach'. Double sharp (talk) 07:47, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

Bell curve formula with skew[edit]

I am using the following formula for a bell curve (please feel free to format this so it looks good): y = (1/(s*sqrt(2*p)))*(e^(-((x-a)^2)/((2*s)^2)), where a=mean, s=standard deviation, p=pi, and e=euler. In case I typo'd, this is the actual code:

What I want to do is add a skew to it. For example, if I had a skew from -1 to 1, I could say that -1 places the mean pretty much all the way to the left side. A skew of 1 will place it almost all the way at the right side. A skew of 0 will be a normal bell curve. Is there a commonly accepted formula that includes this type of skew that I can add? 199.164.8.1 (talk) 13:58, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

A bit off-topic: the parentheses don't seem to balance. Possibly you meant: y = (1/(s*sqrt(2*p)))*e^(-((x-a)^2)/((2*s)^2)).

BTW, wouldn't it be easier to say y = (1/(s*sqrt(2*p)))*exp(-((x-a)/(2*s))^2) ..? --CiaPan (talk) 15:01, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

That is not the optimized code, so your simplification will work. In the optimized code, dn = 1/dn. Then, in the equation, I have *dn instead of /dn. I have to loop through about four million values of x to get the value of y. The optimization replaces millions of floating point divisions with floating point multiplication for a noticeable reduction in clock cycles. What isn't shown is that I'm editing a Fortran procedure, so optimization is manual. 199.164.8.1 (talk) 15:46, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

You may want the skew normal distribution, although it's not necessarily the only possible generalization. Add: yeah, a bit more is mentioned at that article; see also the exponentially modified Gaussian distribution. Different options are going to have different properties, and which you'd want probably depends on what you're trying to do. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 15:08, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

I read through that, but didn't see anything that I could use. I will look again. For example, I saw that I could multiply y by dy(x)/dy. But, 'dy(x)' is not a appliable formula for computer programming (and neither is dx). I have to differentiate the equation first. That made me wonder if there was a standard solution instead of differentiating the equation. 199.164.8.1 (talk) 15:48, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

I have a suggestion. The higher the value of y, the more you want it to be offset along the x-axis, correct ? 'a' is the initial value of that offset. So, after you calculate the value of y using the regular formula, try recalculating it, but this time, in addition to 'a', plug in the value of y from the previous calculation (which I will call y0), multiplied by some skew factor, k, which may be positive or negative. Like so:

Or, to put it in terms of your code:

Try that out and see if it does what you need. (Note that the area under the curve is reduced by this skewing effect, with more skewing causing more reduction. This is because the highest part of the curve is more narrow, while the maximum height remains the same. Is that OK ? The skew normal distribution method increased the maximum, to avoid this effect.) SinisterLefty (talk) 04:31, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

You could have different standard deviations on each side. By definition, each side has 50% of the population. But, one side will be compact and the other will be long. 2600:1004:B053:6718:9C3E:1FC5:DD8B:B2CA (talk) 14:07, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

One possible definition of a 'skewed normal distribution' is one that was normal, but no longer is, after having been skewed. So, the usage is similar to a dwarf planet, which isn't actually a planet. From the OP's description, this is what I think they meant. If so, then the 50% on each side condition would no longer apply. SinisterLefty (talk) 16:19, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

Barycentric coordinates[edit]

In Water pouring puzzle it states 'If the number of jugs is three, the filling status after each step can be described in a diagram of barycentric coordinates, because the sum of all three integers stays the same throughout all steps. In consequence the steps can be visualized as some kind of billard moves in the (clipped) coordinate system on a triangular lattice.'

Can someone explain what any of that means. -- SGBailey (talk) 15:47, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

'Barycentric coordinates' would mean around the center of mass, but I don't see how that applies here. SinisterLefty (talk) 16:07, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

It really makes no sense. The barycentric coordinate system looks like a node graph from graph theory, but it really isn't. I believe the person who wrote that thought of it as a vertex/edge graph and went with something that looks the same. What you can do is create a node/edge graph starting with [0,0,0] (all empty). Send an edge out to [8,0,0], [0,5,0], and [0,0,3]. Then, from each of those vertices, send out edges to every possibility. Eventually, you will have states that already exist in the graph. The number of states is limited, so the graphing process will end at some point. 135.84.167.41 (talk) 16:37, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

They are referring to a ternary plot, which is a type of barycentric plot, where points in a triangle are located by computing the center of mass resulting from three unequal weights; those weights give the coordinates. If you duplicate the triangle and unfold it along an edge to form mirrored triangles, then any path that bounced off the the common edge of the original triangle has an associated path that continues in a straight line across the common edge into the other triangle. By unfolding again and again, ad inifinitum, you get a triangular lattice of triangles. In this lattice any straight line path can mapped to a bouncing path inside one triangle, a cute and useful mathematical trick. --{{u Mark viking}} {Talk} 20:39, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

The key thing I have gathered from all the above is 'It really makes no sense'. Does anyone feel the article would be worse if I deleted that paragraph? -- SGBailey (talk) 22:03, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

What I wrote makes sense to me. I added a ref to that section for using barycentric (trilinear) coordinates. --{{u Mark viking}} {Talk} 22:17, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

The link in the Mathworld page [8] is more informative than the Mathworld page itself. It's natural to draw the kind of triangular grid shown when you solve the problem, and the coordinate system is a convenient way of describing one, but this type of coordinate system isn't exactly on the standard math curriculum nowadays. I think it comes down what you expect the target audience for the article to be familiar with. --RDBury (talk) 22:49, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

Is there any (current or historical) society that implemented tax based currency?[edit]

Is there any (current or historical) society that implemented tax based currency?

Something like, the state would create some tax that almost everyone would need to pay, the tax would cost X coins, where X is not a percentage of anything, but an specific value. So with X coins you will be ALWAYS be able to pay this specific tax.177.177.210.166 (talk) 00:00, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

You mean, the value of the currency would be the 1/X of the tax? Poll tax has example of a fixed amount tax, but it didn't define the currency

I cannot think of a sensible reason to do that. Gem fr (talk) 07:04, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

Some societies have established currencies which were claimed to be backed by state-owned assets (other than precious metals), probably starting with the French revolutionary assignat. However, most of them haven't held up too long.. AnonMoos (talk) 08:27, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

German Rentenmark worked this way (sort of: backing assets were not state-owned, but owners were engaged in a mortgage; see the article) and was a success Gem fr (talk) 12:05, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

(ec)But isn't it what most currencies are today? Most currencies are not backed by a real asset, they are just backed by 'trust that the state will be able to continue to function and continue receive income (=tax) in the future'. --Lgriot (talk) 12:35, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

See fiat currency. But I don't think that's what the OP was asking about. SinisterLefty (talk) 12:39, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

Some taxes, like vehicle registration, may be fixed amounts (as opposed to based on vehicle weight, value, age, etc.). But for most taxes this approach doesn't make sense, because it would make low-priced items prohibitively expensive, and also provide little tax income for expensive items. It would have the effect of being much worse on poor people, who buy inexpensive items in low quantity, than the rich, who can buy expensive items in bulk, or bundled together. Thus, it would be a regressive tax. The Stamp Act of 1765 was one instance of such a silly tax, with the result that every card in a deck of cards had a separate tax on it. This tax was so unpopular, it was one cause of the American Revolution. SinisterLefty (talk) 12:44, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

Yeah, excise taxes and capitations (poll taxes) can be set at a specific amount per whole unit rather than based on value or wealth. In California, the excise on distilled spirits is $3.30 per gallon (this is double on liquors over 100 proof). But generally speaking there’s always a unit attached: per gallon or per person or (in the stamp act example cited above) per playing card. Often things that might be called fees could also be described as taxes (the vehicle registration fee example cited above). Anyway I think what OP is asking about is capitation/poll taxes, which are expressly permitted in the U.S. Constitution, but to my knowledge aren’t levied anymore because income taxation is far more effective for revenue purposes. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 15:57, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

Yes, I am talking about flat tax, Poll tax.., by being a specific amount X, this means that if you have X dollars now you will be able to pay for it, and if you have X dollars at the year 2050 you will be able to pay for it too. The part where alot of people have to pay, is to make sure the state that would be the answer to this question can't just at the future accept the loss they will have by inflating the currency and so are forced to not inflate currency or they will lose money since this tax would be a good chunk of the money they get from taxes.177.177.210.166 (talk) 23:03, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

Taxes that can't go up to adjust for inflation ? That wouldn't work because external factors affect inflation, like the global price of oil, which in turn depend on supply and demand. Price controls are an effort to stop inflation, which can work for a while, but eventually something breaks: [9]. The Code of Hammurabi was partly about price controls.

Alternatively, the government might try to restrict the money supply, to cause deflation, making the tax rate effectively higher. That also would have dire consequences. SinisterLefty (talk) 23:12, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

According to Debt: The First 5000 Years, when the French took over Madagascar they instituted a tax whose purpose was to rope the natives into the cash economy. Is that close to what you have in mind? —Tamfang (talk) 20:15, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

To draw a prallel in a non-tax context, are you thinking something like a UK first class stamp, which will always hold its value in terms of being able to pay for a letter to be sent first class, regardless of the actual value of such a service in pound terms?

Unfortunately revenue stamps are as far as I know always denominated in 'normal' currency terms. If there was a revenue stamp denominated by number of transactions to be stamped (for example) that might fit your bill.

A tenuously similar concept exists in Australian criminal law. Fines are typically defined in multiples of penalty units, and these definitions remain largely fixed. However a penalty unit will be varied from time to time by the government, thereby increasing (or decreasing) all fines. However, as far as I know it is not possible to buy a coin or stamp denominated in penalty units! --49.255.185.235 (talk) 07:22, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

In England it's called (for example) 'Level 5 on the standard scale'. 2A00:23C5:E111:C500:1D23:9F4B:7F07:8938 (talk) 18:23, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

An example of a flat rate would be an unmetered water rate, which is dependent on the notional rental value of the property (the valuations haven't been changed since the introduction of the poll taxc. 1990). Thus the charge is the same however much water is consumed. This is in contrast to an ad valorem tax. 2A00:23C5:E111:C500:1D23:9F4B:7F07:8938 (talk) 18:39, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

Unequal treatment of persons involved in sex crimes[edit]

Hi,

I am looking for a Slate document (dated <=2010) about 'prosecutorial discretion where either the older partner or the male partner [..] gets charged' (mentioned in a comment by Ricardo under this post at The Volokh Conspiracy).

Thanks. Apokrif (talk) 22:12, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

Could be this one. There are more sources linked from there. Someguy1221 (talk) 13:15, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

Legality of Trump's Tariff Hikes[edit]

According to the US constitution, only Congress has the power to tax. Yet, President Trump has raised tariff taxes multiple times. What gives Trump the authority to raise taxes? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 12:09, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

Congress has chosen on multiple occasions to delegate that power to the executive branch. See Trump tariffs#Legality. It will remain this way unless and until congress chooses to take that power back. Someguy1221 (talk) 13:09, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

The Constitution says Congress shall have the power. It doesn't say 'only Congress' or 'exclusive power'. It's one of those concurrent powers. InedibleHulk(talk) 20:24, August 25, 2019 (UTC)

Hm? Concurrent powers refers to powers shared by states and the federal government. Congress does have sole power to tax; tariffs are not the same as taxes. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇} 22:56, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

I get that. But once you share a power with 50 state governments (and figure something out with the tribes and territories that uphold parts of your constitution), it's hard to justify jealousy with a fellow federal branch, especially when it claims to need it 'for an emergency'. Citizens with booking agents pay a sort of income tax, too, and if they're beloved national superstars, one could argue their scheduled appearances are even good for general welfare. InedibleHulk(talk) 01:26, August 26, 2019 (UTC)

States have tariffs??? ←Baseball Bugs^{What's up, Doc?}carrots→ 12:03, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

We're talking about taxation power, you rascally rabbit. InedibleHulk(talk) 22:15, August 26, 2019 (UTC)

Congress's power to tax is granted in the same sentence that grants power to create tariffs, although the word 'tariff' is not used. As for whether this power is exclusive, see Nondelegation doctrine and the cases linked therefrom. Someguy1221 (talk) 00:13, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

• Here's an article that lists some of the acts of Congress that granted the President to raise tariffs. You can ignore the article if it's biased or not, and just look at the acts. It's also a year old, so any acts that may have happened after are not included. Also, as the article pointed out, to nullify a tariff, they would basically need a veto proof number in Congress, something they don't have. [10]Sir Joseph^(talk) 01:40, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

• This is really not any different than any other law. The way the U.S. system works is that the legislature is in charge of passing laws, then the executive is in charge of making the laws happen. Thus, Congress might pass a law that says that the Environmental Protection Agency has the authority to set maximum emissions standards for coal power plants. The EPA is thus enabled by Congress to set those standards and enforce them. Congress, in this case, has passed laws that give the President the authority to set tariffs, and then it is his responsibility. I don't really know why people find this all that different from every other law that has been passed in history by Congress. This is pretty much how most of them work. --Jayron32 12:13, 26 August 2019 (UTC)
  • As the Nondelegation doctrine explains 'this Court has deemed it 'constitutionally sufficient' if Congress clearly delineates the general policy, the public agency which is to apply it, and the boundaries of this delegated authority.' The doubt arises whether the last condition has been met. Some laws have been overturned for not putting clear limits on the Executive branch. Rmhermen (talk) 17:02, 27 August 2019 (UTC)
    • Actually, the more germane sentence is later in the article 'Only rarely has the Supreme Court invalidated laws as violations of the nondelegation doctrine' --Jayron32 17:37, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

Death of Anna Leopoldovna[edit]

How did Anna Leopoldovna die? The article claimed she “died during childbirth on 18 March 1746” but her final son Alexei Antonovich of Brunswick was born on 27 February 1746. She can’t have died of childbirth nearly a month after the birth of a child. 73.92.22.17 (talk) 01:12, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

More mysteriously, the actual reference given for the relevant sentence is to an article in the 9th Edition 1879 of the Encyclopædia Britannica which actually states 'in 1745, she died in childbed' [my bold], while our article as a whole draws on a later version from the 11th Edition of 1911 which states 'on the 18th of March 1746 she died in childbed.' The externally linked The American Cyclopædia (1879) also says 'died March 18, 1746.'

I think it quite feasible that a woman could die of the effects of childbirth some 19 days after the event, but if so the wording in the EB and in our article are misleading.

I could also understand if the death date had been given as 1747, because several calenders used to begin the year from 1st March – possibly there has been in some source document for the EB a mistaken amendment from 1747 (as we now number it) to 1746 on this assumption and the birth in question was of a subsequent infant who also died.

A more likely source of a mistake, however, is that Anna actually died on 7 March by the old Russian calendar which became the 18th by the new calendar (see Old Style and New Style dates), as specified in this reference for example, so perhaps Alexei was born on 27 February (old) and the gap between his birth and her consequent death was only around 8 days.

Aaand, I've now found this source, which definitively states ' Nine days after Alexei’s birth, on 19 March 1746, Anna Leopoldovna died of post-natal fever . . . .'

It would seem that the wording and dating in our articles (and in the old EBs) is indeed misleading and amendments are in order. I'll let you do the honours, as I'm not very good at citations. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.122.61.224 (talk) 02:15, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

'Post-natal fever', in modern terms, is likely some form of infection, perhaps due to vaginal tears, common in childbirth. And it wouldn't be surprising that such an infection would take many days to become fatal. SinisterLefty (talk) 04:28, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

Obviously, dying a month later wouldn't be in childbirth, but there's no reason it couldn't be from complications of childbirth. ←Baseball Bugs^{What's up, Doc?}carrots→ 03:24, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

Puerperal fever [11] is the term I believe, but our article is called postpartum infections 'also known as childbed fever and puerperal fever'.

See also The Attempt to Understand Puerperal Fever in the Eighteenth and Early Nineteenth Centuries.

Note that Princess Marie of Baden (1782–1808), the wife of Frederick William, Duke of Brunswick-Wolfenbüttel, also died of puerperal fever in 1802, four days after giving birth to a stillborn daughter. Alansplodge (talk) 11:59, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

The mother of Peter II of Russia died ten days after the birth. 2A00:23C5:E111:C500:1D23:9F4B:7F07:8938 (talk) 18:49, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

BTW, 1911 Encyclopædia Britannica/Anna Leopoldovna sats that she died 'in childbed', not in childbirth. Alansplodge (talk) 20:07, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

Which is exactly what I quoted above. Since she doubtless remained in the same bed between giving birth and dying, 'childbed' is a logical usage and a term that used to be common, but is perhaps less familiar nowadays, hence the earlier misunderstandings. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.122.61.224 (talk) 00:48, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

Claim by The Guardian about Big Tobacco's power.[edit]

'Disputes will be settled in a court of arbitration, where major corporations maintain the right to sue governments that make unilateral changes to the law that affect their profits. This is a mechanism tobacco companies have used to extract compensation for laws restricting or banning smoking.' The Guardian

What, when and where '..tobacco companies have used [court of arbitration] to extract compensation for laws restricting or banning smoking.' has this happened and the extent of it? --2600:1700:90E0:E040:4131:2D6D:738C:5709 (talk) 16:46, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

I'm neither a lawyer nor very informed, but I'm assuming The Guardian is referring to Investor-state dispute settlement, though that didn't seem to work in Big Tobacco's favour in the cases Philip Morris v. Uruguay or Big Tobacco's response to Australia's plain cigarette packaging law (another occasion to read about pantone 448 C, 'the ugliest colour in the world'). ---Sluzzelintalk 17:04, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

To add further colour to Sluzzelin's answer, which is correct - an aggrieved company (and this is not unique to tobacco or even very unusual) usually has three ways to challenge a law that it does not like: (1) domestically, under the law-making country's own rules for challenging a law, e.g. for constitutionality or as a judicial review of an administrative measure; (2) via investor-state dispute settlement, typically designed to protect a foreign investor from government abuse under a bilateral investment treaty; and (3) via a state-to-state mechanism such as the WTO dispute resolution mechanism, though this requires a state to take up the case for the company in question. In the case of Australia's tobacco packaging laws, the tobacco companies tried all three, even managing to find some pliant governments to speak for them at the WTO. --49.255.185.235 (talk) 02:09, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

But did they succeed (in Australia or elsewhere)? Because the sentence 'have used to extract compensation' imply they did. Gem fr (talk) 08:43, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

Not in the Australian case but I believe tobacco companies have succeeded in investor arbitration against national governments in the past: e.g. this case on the basis of discrimination: https://www.italaw.com/cases/435. I am not an investor-state arbitration expert and do not know how often this happens. --49.255.185.235 (talk) 04:37, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

thanks for the ref, but this case seems pretty irrelevant: the claimant is an exporter who happens to export Tobacco among other things (not a tobacco company), just asking actual application of Mexican law and Mexican courts decisions, that were disregarded because corruption (so he claims, at least, as far as I understand the first pages of https://www.italaw.com/sites/default/files/case-documents/italaw7852.pdf ). Would be relevant if The Guardian claimed that courts of arbitration are an effective mean to fight corruption.. Gem fr (talk) 06:56, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Trivia about Julius Caesar's assassination[edit]

Is Plutarch's story that Julius Caesar pulled his toga over his head when he saw Brutus coming to stab him true ? 223.176.2.57 (talk) 06:05, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

how do you think we can know that better than Plutarch? Somehow they failed to record on film the live eventGem fr (talk) 08:16, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

There's one film of it, but Caesar looks suspiciously like Louis Calhern. ←Baseball Bugs^{What's up, Doc?}carrots→ 11:59, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

Many could know better than Plutarch, if not us, since Plutarch was born a century after the assassination. However, he apparently drew on the writings of Gaius Asinius Pollio who was a contemporary (and a politician who supported Caesar) - but who also was in Spain at the time of the assassination. He also may have copied Suetonius (see below).

The chief contemporary to write about the event was Cicero, who was apparently sympathetic to the conspirators, though not in the conspiracy or present at the assassination. See Epistulae ad Brutum, for example. Scholars consider Cicero's letters reliable historical sources.

Among other contemporaries: Lucius Cornelius Balbus was a Caesar supporter and his diary of events was used as a source by Suetonius more than a hundred years later. Hypsicrates was a former slave freed by Caesar three years before the assassination and his writing may have been used by Strabo several decades later. Livy was a teenager at the time of the assassination and was in any case not yet living in Rome. Because Livy's history of Rome, begun about 15-20 years after the assassination, contains internal consistenciesinconsistencies, and because he wrote elaborate speeches for people in history, scholars are wary of his accuracy.70.67.193.176 (talk) 16:30, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

Livy is considered inaccurate because his histories were consistent? Tough crowd. Matt Deres (talk) 18:35, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

LOL - thanks for catching! Fixed.70.67.193.176 (talk) 20:00, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

'Cicero, who was apparently sympathetic to the conspirators' Unsurprising. Despite his novus homo status, Cicero was a member of the Optimates political faction (Caesar's political opponents). Cicero also supported Pompey during Caesar's Civil War (49-45 BC). While Caesar pardoned him and allowed him to return to Rome, Cicero was still not a supporter of Caesar's regime. 'A letter Cicero wrote in February 43 BC to Trebonius, one of the conspirators, began, 'How I could wish that you had invited me to that most glorious banquet on the Ides of March'!'^[1]Dimadick (talk) 14:39, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

Cases of settler colonialism culminating into separatism?[edit]

Which cases were there where settler colonialism ultimately culminates into separatism? So far, I could think of Northern Ireland, Palestine, and Texas, but which other cases of this were there? Futurist110 (talk) 20:10, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

If you mean present-day countries where descendants of post-1492 immigrants outnumber descendants of pre-1492 inhabitants, then that would appear to include the majority of the Western Hemisphere (excluding Paraguay), Australia, New Zealand, and some others (assuming that you're looking for information, not just an excuse to trot out pseudo-leftist buzzwords).. AnonMoos (talk) 20:58, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

I was looking more for cases where settler colonialism resulted in local majorities in certain places but not throughout an entire territory and where the settlers and their descendants subsequently wanted to secede from the main territory. So, for instance, having North Ireland secede from Ireland and remain part of Britain, having the Jewish parts of Palestine plus the Negev secede from Palestine in order to create a Jewish state in these territories, having Texas secede from Mexico and become independent, et cetera. Futurist110 (talk) 21:35, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

I don't get what the relevance of this comment is? Is 'settler colonialism' a pseudo-leftist buzzword? Futurist110 (talk) 21:35, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

Israel did not 'secede' from Palestine. The British withdrew from their mandate territory, leaving behind a vacuum of no government, and in various places various Arab and Jewish forces flowed into said vacuum. (Nominally the British claimed that they would hand their Mandate over to the United Nations Palestine Commission, but the British worked hard to sabotage this commission so that it would not be able to have any practical influence or authority, and achieved great success in that goal, so that the United Nations dissolved the Commission on May 14th, just before the Mandate ended).

Also, I don't see how Texas is too different from the 13 colonies or United States as a whole. Also, when people are described as 'settler colonialists', it's usually to condemn them as being evil.. AnonMoos (talk) 22:47, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

The Palestinians laid claim to the Palestine Mandate in its entirety while the Zionists did not, no? If so, why can't what the Zionists did be considered secession? After all, while there was certainly a power vacuum in Palestine, wasn't the Palestine Mandate viewed as one territory before 1947? Futurist110 (talk) 23:12, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

+1 AnonMoos. Palestine is the name of a geographical area, and never was a political entity that could be associated with a state from which you could secede. Israel is on Palestine just like BRD is on Bavaria and France is on Brittany. So it make no sense to write 'secede from Palestine'. The political faction calling themselves 'Palestinian' are thus claiming for them, and denying others, a right on the land; this is the reason they chose the name, but be aware that 'Palestinian' was scornfully used as a slur against Jews in old days (as a way to imply 'go back home to your shithole country, you do not belong here').

Well, were the Thirteen Colonies ever officially viewed as being part of England? Futurist110 (talk) 23:12, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

Not England, but the British Crown (which officially still include Australia, Canada..)Gem fr (talk) 06:20, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

Not so. There's a Queen of Australia, a Queen of Canada, a Queen of the United Kingdom, a Queen of Papua New Guinea, etc etc. Despite being the same person in actuality, these are all different crowns. The UK has no legal capacity whatsoever to involve itself in the affairs of Australia, New Zealand, Canada etc. If the UK Prime Minister advised the Queen of the UK to do something in relation to Australia, she would reply 'Thank you, Prime Minister, but I am advised in Australian matters by my Australian Prime Minister. So nick off'. -- Jack of Oz^{[pleasantries]} 08:38, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

Oupsy. I was wrong, you are right. Gem fr (talk) 09:53, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

Jack accurately describes the situation today, but this wasn't the case even 100 years ago. The 13 colonies weren't part of England and Wales, but they were a leading part of the Empire in its early era. Of course many of the colonists resented the idea of London legislating for them, and a dispute resulted from the practice, but Loyalist colonists, and inhabitants of other colonies, like the Province of Canada and the New South Wales colony, were subject to legislation and other aspects of government by Westminster. The idea that one could profess loyalty to the Sovereign, while maintaining independence of London, isn't entirely a new idea, but in real life it's only a recent development that a part of the Sovereign's realm beyond the seas rejecting the authority of London (let alone the idea of advocating the abolition of the monarchy) is seen as acceptable. Nyttend (talk) 22:42, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

I was under the impression that settler colonialism is a neutral term. In fact, isn't that why our article about this topic is called that way? Futurist110 (talk) 23:12, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

considering the heavy implications of colonialism, there is no way 'settler colonialism' can be neutral. WP is notoriously not neutral in any political feud; doesn't make it useless, just to be taken with a grain of salt. Gem fr (talk) 06:20, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

Kosovo, Sri Lanka, Cyprus, Ceuta and Melilla, Most of India (Pakistan, Kashmir, ..), South Africa, Myanmar, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Lebanon, Ukraine, Bruxelles, parts of Western countries claiming Sharia Law should be applied in them, etc. Gem fr (talk) 06:51, 27 August 2019 (UTC)::

I don't understand your list. Are you seriously saying that most inhabitants of India are not descended from pre-1492 inhabitants of India? --49.255.185.235 (talk) 23:32, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

1492 isn't particularly relevant in India. A direct water route to India was discovered in 1495; Westerners were nonexistent in India before then, aside from individuals who made exceptionally long land journeys, and while non-Indian cultures might have an influence, non-Indian states didn't have any influence unless they were neighbors (e.g. the Persians) or had fought their way into the region (e.g. Indian campaign of Alexander the Great). Nyttend (talk) 23:47, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

Just a note, regarding 'western influence in India;' you're only off by 1700 years. Europeans had established extensive direct contact and cultural exchange with the subcontinent in pre-Christian times. Such contacts ebbed and flowed throughout history, it didn't start from nothing in 1495; overland contact between Europe and India was difficult, but not non-existent. --Jayron32 01:08, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

I ignored the Greco-Bactrian and Indo-Greek Kingdoms because they were the result of a state that had fought its way into the region after making an exceptionally long land journey, because the G-Bs were neighbors and the I-Gs went native (witness Greco-Buddhism, for example), and because as far as I'm aware, they had no significant continuing contact with the Mediterranean. The point is that the post-Da-Gama type of contact was unprecedented: never before did you have plenty of Westerners in India, representing European kingdoms and retaining firm political and cultural roots there rather than adopting south Asian culture and/or founding new independent polities based in the region. Nyttend (talk) 03:31, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

I don't see any reason why was 1492 would be relevant, as if the practice to move and then rip off power from previous government wasn't immemorial and universal. I was referring both to India#Medieval_India moves (pre-1492) and to Partition_of_India#Independence,_population_transfer,_and_violence (post-1492). The fact that some moving population came from another part of India (not all : Khalaj people for instance) also doesn't seems relevant to me. Gem fr (talk) 00:27, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

I don't understand your point. The OP is asking about colonial settlers settling in one part of a country which then leads to that part splitting off from the host country. Who are the colonial settlers in the Indian example and which host country did India split off from? AFAIK Indian independence was supported by actual Indians and its split from the British Empire was nothing to do with non-British colonial settlers settling in India.

As for Hong Kong and Taiwan, the fact that both are predominantly populated by migrants from China and now want to split off from China seems to be the opposite of the case the OP is referring to.--49.255.185.235 (talk) 04:41, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

India as subcontinent, not India as the current Republic. Khalaj people for instance came, and this resulted in split in previous states.

Likewise, current event in Kashmir, including people wanting to secede from India, are just in line with the events of 1947 (lots of people moved and demographics changed).

British colonization led to the creation of a new people in Hong Kong, with values and ethos quite different from mainland China (for instance, before the handover people in Hong Kong with mostly non-English ancestry seriously considered British citizenship. British nationality law and Hong Kong discuss the matter), hence the current secessionism. Comparable situation in Taiwan.

Now, you may be right that these may not be what the OP is asking for, but I fell it interesting to at least consider them. Up to him. Gem fr (talk) 06:43, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Appropriating famous dead people's names[edit]

Seems like a tendency in the tech sector (maybe other places too) for promoters to aggrandize products by associating them with the names of illustrious dead people (I like to think if they did this with living people without permission, they would get pounded). I can understand if there's not much pushback over the Acorn Archimedes computer, or the NVidia Kepler GPU, since those people have been dead for millennia or at least centuries. But what about Tesla cars (Nikola Tesla died in 1943 and may have some living relatives), and that sort of thing? What if SpaceX wants to name a rocket after Neil Armstrong? Is there a waiting period, or is it just a matter of what they think they can get away with? It all seems kind of tasteless to me. Thanks. Added: there is also an NVidia Tesla GPU come to think of it. 67.164.113.165 (talk) 21:04, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

There's a whole area of law dealing with this -- see California Celebrities Rights Act, Post-mortem privacy#Post-mortem publicity rights, etc. AnonMoos (talk) 21:13, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

And there's a whole list of things named after Nikola Tesla. InedibleHulk(talk) 23:26, August 26, 2019 (UTC)

• 'What if SpaceX wants to name a rocket after Neil Armstrong' - Blue Origin, not SpaceX. Fgf10 (talk) 07:15, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

'Nikola Tesla died in 1943 and may have some living relatives' Nikola Tesla had four siblings (three sisters, one brother), but had no known direct descendants. He never married, considered chastity a requirement for his scientific research (.. 'explaining that his chastity was very helpful to his scientific abilities'), and was reclusive for most of his life. According to our article, following Tesla's death his estate was inherited by a nephew, Sava Kosanović. Dimadick (talk) 14:53, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

• As noted at the Wikipedia article personality rights, under the civil law and common law jurisdictions section: 'Unlike most common law jurisdictions the personality rights in civil law are generally inheritable, thus one can make a claim against someone who invades the privacy of a deceased relative if the memory of their character is besmirched by such publication.' so it depends on whether or not such rights are considered inheritable as property of themselves, or if they end at death (as in, being attached to the person), and that will depend on jurisdiction. This article at the National Law Review deals specifically with various US state laws but seems to have some information that directly relates to the discussion at hand. --Jayron32 16:10, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

• See Webster's Dictionary#The name Webster used by others for discussion of publishers aggrandizing their dictionaries by associating them with the name of an illustrious dead person, and for discussion of how US courts have handled lawsuits on the question. Nyttend (talk) 22:28, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

• That also raises some questions about the difference or ambiguity in how people who died before current intellectual property and personality rights law came into being are treated differently from how people who die today will have their intellectual property and personality rights treated in the future. The cases you cite show how the first is treated; generally courts treat expired rights as expired in perpetuity. That is the rights of long dead people who's legal IP and personality rights have expired cannot have those rights recovered. The heirs of Noah Webster cannot reclaim the heritable rights he had, because those rights passed long ago. However, modern laws on these issues are MUCH different; historic patterns indicate that corporations have consistently, and are prepared to long into the future, create a regime of perpetual copyright, patent, and other IP laws that establish functionally perpetual rights; that is recent legal history has shown that large, wealthy corporations are quite able to get such rights legally extended indefinitely. See, for example the Copyright Term Extension Act, known derisively as the mickey mouse law, which along with similar laws in the EU, were seen as attempts to do just that. The question becomes when could we expect the IP and personality rights of a person who dies today to expire; when will their work enter the public domain and when will their name and likeness be unencumbered by restrictions. The answer is likely 'never' given the patterns we have to go on. --Jayron32 01:01, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Eldred v. Ashcroft was certainly one of the more pathetic decisions in the history of the Supreme Court, with contorted verbal gymnastics to prove that somehow 'for limited times' actually meant 'for unlimited times'. However, there has not been a renewal of the 1998 Sony Bono law, and on January 1st the public domain counter moved from 1923 to 1924 (necessitating the renaming of templates on Commons). See [12] etc.. AnonMoos (talk) 03:33, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

It did, but that counter has not hit the major IP of the Disney Corporation and other similarly large and powerful media empires. They have shown the desire and ability to bribe give campaign contributions to politicians to get what they want to protect that IP many times in the past. We have no reason to suspect that trend to stop. This article in particular discusses likely strategies for Disney to use to protect its IP indefinitely; the copyright avenue may be a dead end for them, but it's not the only weapon in their arsenal. --Jayron32 12:38, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Thanks everyone. Fgf10 that was amazing about Blue Origin. I wonder if Bezos got any sort of permission for that. 173.228.123.207 (talk) 02:14, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

Gunboats in the American Civil War[edit]

I've just now discovered Mississippi River Squadron and its redirect Western Gunboat Flotilla. Did this squadron comprise all Union Army/Navy riverine presence in the Mississippi system, or were there other squadrons/flotillas/etc. as well? Context: when I wrote Pulaski County Courthouse (Illinois), I referred to the county prospering due to a gunboat-repair facility and provided a link to gunboats in the American Civil War, figuring that it might be a logical article topic, but now I'm wondering whether I might just link the squadron article. Nyttend (talk) 22:22, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

Mississippi River Gunboats of the American Civil War 1861–65 refers to both a Mississippi Squadron and a New Orleans Squadron (that is, one team for the lower river and one for the upper). 70.67.193.176 (talk) 22:47, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

Why are the 2020 Democratic candidates no longer using the word 'suspend' when dropping out?[edit]

I noticed that this US election cycle, candidates who drop out seem to now be willing to use a word other than 'suspend'. For example, Eric Swalwell, John Hickenlooper, and Seth Moulton all said that they were 'ending' their campaigns, while Jay Inslee said he was 'withdrawing' from the race. Why this change, and why did these words suddenly become 'safe' to use? By contrast, in previous American election cycles, when candidates dropped out, they seemed to avoid these words as much as possible and instead said they were 'suspending' their campaigns. Narutolovehinata5 00:06, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

I wonder if campaign contributions play a a part. That is, once they have ended a campaign, I would expect they could no longer accept contributions to the campaign, and might even have to return any leftover funds. But if it is only suspended, maybe not ? So, then, has the law regarding campaign contributions changed in this respect ? SinisterLefty (talk) 00:20, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Investing in a President Swalwell is a pretty serious gamble. Either you get who you paid for or you get complimentary extravaganza service you could've had for way less at a normal casino. I don't think many pro lobbyists see 'suspended' and take it to mean the horse is still a longshot. Unless they're quitting to become a Senator Hickenlooper or Governor Moulton or something vaguely Inslee worth presidential prices. Even a good regional Chamber of Commerce president can pay off if you're lucky. InedibleHulk(talk) 05:19, August 28, 2019 (UTC)

I was just being hypothetical, but it turns out Senator Hickenlooper is a solid possibility in 2020, and Inslee was running while still Governor. InedibleHulk(talk) 05:39, August 28, 2019 (UTC)

I think it is simply indicative of a desire to signal to their supporters that they are free (and even encouraged) to transfer that support to another Democratic candidate. There is a sense of urgency to have the party come together behind the eventual nominee (whoever that might end up being). Many feel that the division between supporters of Clinton and Sanders hurt the party in 2016 and was a factor in the victory of Trump. Many democrats and independents feel that such an attitude cannot be allowed to take hold in this election cycle. --Khajidha (talk) 02:18, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Have any independents explained why it matters to them? InedibleHulk(talk) 04:53, August 28, 2019 (UTC)

I was speaking of independent voters who might vote Republican one election and Democratic the next, not people supporting an independent candidate. And they would care because they are probably upset with Trump's record over the last 2 years and feel that the country cannot take 4 more years of him. --Khajidha (talk) 10:53, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Less confusing to call those types 'undecided' or 'swing voters', I find. Save 'independents' for people who don't feel the need to choose between left and right, I say. But yeah, some traditional Republicans probably want a more traditional Republican president, even if it means electing a nominal Democrat; that'll be much clearer a guess after the Republican primary, though. InedibleHulk(talk) 03:15, August 29, 2019 (UTC)

I thought suspending a campaign meant the person quit actively running for the office, but the campaign operation itself kept existing, since it had business to wind down, offices to close, etc. So it took a while to shut down completely. This early in the campaign, the long shot candidates might not have had much of an operation. Swalwell, for example, may have run his presidential campaign out of his congressional campaign office and not had any staff or facilities that were purely from his presidential run. Later in the season the surviving operations will be bigger, so we may see some campaigns 'suspended' rather than simply winking out. 173.228.123.207 (talk) 06:46, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

I'm not sure if that's exactly the case, since back in 2016, even the candidates who dropped out long before the primaries (such as Scott Walker and Bobby Jindal) still used the word 'suspend' when ending their campaigns. Narutolovehinata5 22:02, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

According to Jacob Leibenluft of Slate in late '08, 'suspending a campaign' has no formal meaning, rather '[w]hatever the candidate wants it to mean.' I can't paste, so Google it for more if you want. You could also try asking a candidate (or spokesperson) to elaborate, if that's still legal. InedibleHulk(talk) 03:36, August 29, 2019 (UTC)

Also says by 'ending' it, one 'might lose eligibility' for federal matching funds, whatever 'might' means. InedibleHulk(talk) 03:43, August 29, 2019 (UTC)

HMHS Britannic auction[edit]

When many artifacts of the HMHS Britannic were auctioned, what was the total in $USD? (Victor Mee Auctions, which is located in Coolnalitteragh, Ireland, was responsible for everything.)2604:2000:7104:2F00:6586:6906:26A6:DD8E (talk) 02:40, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Judging by [13] and [14], the contents have been auctioned twice; first by Harland and Wolff in 1919, and secondly by Victor Mee in 2019. Per [15], a couple of items sold for €301,000 (of course, the conversion factor varies every day), but I'm not seeing data on prices for other artefacts. Nyttend (talk) 03:39, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

I'm well-aware of the conversion factors varying every day. But what was it on the day of the auction in 2019?2604:2000:7104:2F00:6586:6906:26A6:DD8E (talk) 06:52, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

I'm not seeing data on prices for other artefacts. Nyttend (talk) 10:55, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

I'm referring to the conversion factors of €301,000 (₤257,000) in $USD on May 1, 2019.2604:2000:7104:2F00:6586:6906:26A6:DD8E (talk) 11:16, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

With Google, I found this page:[16] It lists the exchange rate on May 1, 2019 as 1 EUR = 1.1203 USD. RudolfRed (talk) 17:50, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Thank you so much.2604:2000:7104:2F00:940F:5E36:12A5:54A6 (talk) 21:16, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Criminal charges against dead person[edit]

Today's NYT[17] reports on

.. a hearing called after federal prosecutors said they planned to drop the sex trafficking charges against Mr. Epstein in light of his death — a decision that requires a judge’s approval.

We discussed this here a week or two ago and I thought it was established that the US doesn't do posthumous trials. So if the judge doesn't approve dropping the charges, what are the prosecutors supposed to do? Did today's hearing have any legal consequences other than giving Epstein's victims a place to vent? I'm sure there will be civil litigation for years, so I'm wondering if the still-current criminal proceedings have any effect on it. Thanks. 173.228.123.207 (talk) 06:55, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

One possibility re above: if they drop the charges they may also have to stop investigating. But in that case they should want to keep the case open and investigate as much as they can, both to establish more facts about Epstein's activities and possible co-conspirators, and because the prosecutors are already seen by some as part of a cover-up (Epstein's original light sentence, skepticism about his supposed suicide, etc). 173.228.123.207 (talk) 11:34, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Another thing is that civil matters can still be pursued against the estate of a dead person; evidence gathered during the criminal prosecution can be used in civil trials, for example if the victim(s) seek to recover damages or if the state seeks to institute civil penalties against his estate or his business interests. The rules regarding civil procedure are different than criminal procedure; while crimes cannot be levied against the heirs or estate or businesses of a dead person, civil penalties may be. --Jayron32 12:35, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Could it be that the judge just needs to verify the death, by veiwing a death certificate, etc. ? Otherwise a prosecutor who had been bribed/threatened/blackmailed or doesn't want to prosecute his pal could just falsely claim he was dead. In a case like this the death is obvious, but not so if the perp was released prior to trial, especially if the body is missing or burnt/decomposed beyond recognition. SinisterLefty (talk) 13:27, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Could it be that the judge just needs to verify the death, by veiwing a death certificate, etc. ? It's even more mundane than that. The charges have to be formally dismissed by the court. This is only really being covered because of how high-profile Epstein's case was. It's a formal, procedural step virtually without importance except to those who care about such things. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 13:46, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

But I suspect there are reasons that formal step is required, versus just allowing the prosecutor to drop it. Those are the reasons I gave. SinisterLefty (talk) 13:59, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

• Nevermind, I found it. Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure 48(a): 'The government may, with leave of court, dismiss an indictment, information, or complaint. The government may not dismiss the prosecution during trial without the defendant's consent.' Emphasis mine. Leave of court is necessary no matter what. See the 1944 advisory committee notes: a federal indictment, information, or complaint may not be disposed of by nolle prosequi as was the pre-Rules practice, and as is the practice in many state courts. There is no exception for dead defendants. One would expect, however, that leave to be granted readily in most cases, particularly where the defendant is dead and the court's jurisdiction over the person of the defendant is arguably terminated. As I said above, it's entirely mundane and procedural. And it absolutely has nothing to do with the court independently verifying anything; US courts don't really do that with fact evidence. They rely on the parties. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 18:26, 28 August 2019 (UTC)
  • See also, US Department of Justice, Justice Manual, §§ 9–2.040, .050 (dealing with dismissals of indictments, informations, and complaints, and citing cases dealing with the court's discretion to deny such leave). —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 18:31, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

• What I'm not seeing is why this is required. I have to imagine that if somebody attending the session, say the victim, presented evidence that the accused was not, in fact, dead, that the court would do more than just rubber-stamp the prosecutor's atempt to close the case. SinisterLefty (talk) 03:28, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

• It's required because the Federal Rules require it. The reason why the Federal Rules require leave of court for a dismissal rather than allowing cases to be nolle prossed like in state courts is because that practice can be abused to harass criminal defendants. See the cases cited in § 9–2.050 of the Justice Manual, particularly Rinaldi v. United States, 434 U.S. 22 (1977). United States v. Gonzalez, 58 F.3d 459 (9th Cir. 1995) is also informative. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 03:33, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

The greatest American Author?[edit]

Having read much Ernest Hemmingway over the years, and much more recently, I note that the side he was on in the Spanish Civil War, was the losing side. Now this raises two questions which I would ask you to kindly answer. Firstly, when Franco won the war and instilled a Fascist regime in Spain, why was this not tackled and eliminated as part of World War II and the elimination of Fascism in Germany and Italy? It seems bizarre that the world would sit idly by while a major European power is run by a Fascist dictator into the 1970’s. How did this come to be? My second query is are his works dealing with the Spanish Civil War from his earlier life and those dealing with the Caribbean from his later life? I would assume so, although he could have returned to the war theme at any point in his life. Also, was there a clue in any of his later writings that he was going to kill himself? Thank you Anton 81.131.40.58 (talk) 15:25, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

First of all, as is no doubt explained in Francisco Franco, it is a matter of debate whether it is really correct to describe the Franco regime as 'fascist'. Labels aside, while the regime was no doubt authoritarian and repressive, you can make an excellent case that it was less so than that of the Soviet Union, and this is probably the most salient answer to your first question. If the Communist threat had not been there, perhaps Europe would have tried to do something about Spain (though honestly I sort of doubt it, as Franco wasn't much trouble to his neighbors, which is what really drives most international interventions). But in the context of the Cold War it wasn't going to happen. --Trovatore (talk) 16:02, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Authoritarianism alone isn't enough to be fascist, it could be communist or monarchist or theocratic or. Fascist governments' platforms have to have superior and inferior group(s) besides far-left staples like rich/poor, counterrevolutionary/whatever they called the opposite and probably has to be anti-communist. The word has become mushy from being used against too many things though. FDR fascist! Eisenhower fascist! Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 02:37, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

(edit conflict) The answer to the first question is that Spain remained neutral during World War II. Since there were no formal declarations of war between Spain and any of the Allied powers, and Franco frequently himself took actions against the Axis, such as refusing access to Germans and Italians across the Pyrenees, and protecting Gibraltar for the British, as well as his many actions in support of the Axis, such as meeting with Hitler and allowing Spanish volunteers to join the Axis forces. So, the reason the Allies didn't attack Spain is 1) he gave them no reason to and 2) the last thing they needed was yet another front to fight on. As far as Hemmingway's works and what he wrote about at different times of his life, see Ernest Hemingway bibliography which has all of his published works. You can read each synopsis and arrive at your own conclusions. His later works tended to be non-fiction, including the memoir A Moveable Feast and the bullfighting exposé The Dangerous Summer. As far as I know, he mentions nothing in either book about being suicidal. Details of his last months and suicide are covered in the Wikipedia article and section Ernest Hemingway#Idaho and suicide. --Jayron32 16:10, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

(edit conflict)For the first question : check Spain during World War II

'I don't like your fascist regime' (even if true, which can be argue against) was not a proper Casus Belli for USA nor UK. They did their best to NOT let Spain join the axis, and if they could have had it in the Allies, they would (when in a war, you want allies, even unsavory, not more enemies).

Gem fr (talk) 16:13, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

It's not arguable, it was fascist. Though Francoists were able to pragmatize their fanaticism enough to not attack either side and the other sides were happy to continue not attacking them. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 02:09, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

If you can prove that with references, you might want to have a go at the Francisco Franco article, which does discuss fascism, but largely in the context of pressures on Franco to adopt fascism, which apparently he largely resisted.

Part of it of course comes down to how you define 'fascism'. If you define it to mean 'authoritarian nationalism', well, yes, Franco was an authoritarian nationalist. But typically it means something more specific than that, at least in serious discourse. --Trovatore (talk) 03:05, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

Perhaps you could call him big tent authoritarian nationalist syncreticism then. He seems a bit like a play both sides and change position whenever convenient guy. The Jewish thing was pretty shrewd if he foresaw becoming a pariah if the war turned against the Axis, they lost and he didn't save enough to have something to exaggerate later. If they won he could of course pretend to finally change his mind and hand over everyone they wanted. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 04:24, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

Also note that neutral nations are useful in war, being used for prisoner exchanges, negotiations, routes for spies to enter or leave enemy territory, etc. (There were other neutral nations, such as Switzerland, but more is better in this regard.) SinisterLefty (talk) 17:12, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Thank you for these responses, I believe the first part of the question has been answered and for this I thank you. The second though, concerning signs of his suicide and illness reflected in his later works..I often find with Hemmingway that it is not what is said, but rather what is 'not' said that is the true message behind his tales and so perhaps I have phrased my question badly. Are there any suggestions or hints, between the lines, or overtly, that speak of his illness and suicide? Thanks again Anton 81.131.40.58 (talk) 16:19, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

I've not read it, so I can't endorse it, but perhaps a book like This may be useful for your research. --Jayron32 16:36, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

I guess you can read The Old Man and the Sea as a metaphor of life as a fight in which you can give up, so retrospectively read it as the kind of hint you are looking for. Not sure this line of thinking is really relevant, though; there is no way you can 'prove' or disprove it. Gem fr (talk) 16:41, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Some works may be semi-autobiographical, but knowing which aspects are, and are not, the author's own feelings is not an easy task. SinisterLefty (talk) 17:08, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Your header 'The greatest American Author?' seems to have no relation to the questions that follow. Are you also asking whether he's the greatest American author? -- Jack of Oz^{[pleasantries]} 18:32, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

After having seen that header on my watchlist, I was happy to read it wasn't the OP's actual question.---Sluzzelintalk 19:26, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

I intended the phrase 'The greatest American Author?' to be a rhetorical question. He is my favourite author overall and ipso facto the best American author of all time, in my opinion. Thanks Anton 81.131.40.58 (talk) 07:56, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

OK. But the header is supposed to give us some notion of what the question is about, not some quite unrelated and irrelevant point about the person in the question. -- Jack of Oz^{[pleasantries]} 23:32, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

Stalin[edit]

Our article provides very little information on the details of his various escapes from prison. I would please be curious to read any documents, books or articles relating to how he escaped and how he travelled from one place to the next. Thanks Anton 81.131.40.58 (talk) 08:09, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

he never escaped prison, AFAIK. He fled Siberia when deported there, which is somewhat different (not 'prison break'-like at all) . The way he did it would be detailed in the document/books our article use as ref. Gem fr (talk) 09:24, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

Agreed; but actually Stalin was exiled to Solvychegodsk in Arkhangelsk Oblast which is some way to the west of Siberia, but a remote location all the same. He had a one-room apartment and was kept under police surveillance, but apparently not continuously guarded. There was a already a community of other political and criminal exiles in the town, and he used their help to make his getaway. Stalin: An Unknown Portrait by Miklơs Kun (pp. 97-99) has a description of the event. With two other Bolsheviks, he crossed a forest before travelling on the Northern Dvina River (presumably in a stolen boat but this is not specified) and then took a train alone to St Petersburg. Alansplodge (talk) 12:42, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

Brown's Chicken massacre: Amount stolen[edit]

Our article on the Brown's Chicken massacre (a 1993 restaurant robbery turned mass murder) says that the killers made off with 'less than $2000'. I was hoping to insert an {{inflation}} template to indicate what the amount they stole means in present-day terms, but the figure of 'less than $2000' makes for an awkward inflation value ('The assailants stole less than $2000 from the restaurant. This is the equivalent of less than [whatever] in [year].' seems awkward to me). I was wondering if there was an approximate amount or even an exact amount that they stole in any sources, particularly ones from the cases, but I'm having trouble finding anything. Thanks! —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 21:44, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

I actually just found a source that says '$1800 to $1900'. That might be as good as it gets. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 23:46, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

Why not just say: 'The killers made off with less than $2000 ($3551 in 2019 dollars)' .. or something similar? That sounds OK, no? Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 05:58, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

Well, what it sounds like to me is false precision, and for that matter a needless conversion. Why not just leave the item as it was? --76.69.116.4 (talk) 07:22, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

Hitler's standard variation[edit]

At 0:27 there's some sort of Hitler's personal standard different from the usual one. Is it a variation for music band or something else? Brandmeister^talk 21:54, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

'The usual one' is the standard of the LSSAH, who served as Hitler's bodyguard, in addition to later rolls. I have not been able to spot anything on commons or the larger internet that matches the one in that video. The sunburst beneath the flag resembles the one on the Nazi version of the grand cross, but that didn't help me learn anything about it. Someguy1221 (talk) 22:38, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

Smells like a question of chronology. 1st_SS_Panzer_Division_Leibstandarte_SS_Adolf_Hitler#Expansion mention that 'On 13 April 1934, Reichsführer-SS Heinrich Himmler ordered the Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler (LAH) to be renamed 'Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler', while it previously origined from 1st SS-Standarte, assigned to protect AH instead of previous militaty unit when AH became chancellor. With each change of the name, a change of standard would also occur. If so, the film should anterior to April 1934 Gem fr (talk) 23:53, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

Indian state borders for Commons[edit]

I am looking for free, up-to-date data of India's current state and union territory borders, preferably in a form suitable for drawing maps. This is for an upload on Commons; see this request on the Graphic Lab. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 03:57, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

Parliamentary prorogation and the options available to MP's to prevent a no-deal Brexit[edit]

Hi everybody, as you may have read in the news recently, Brexit is continuing to make waves in the UK after Boris Johnson announced he is proroguing Parliament, most likely from the 9th September until October 14, to present a Queen's speech, where he can outline his legislative agenda.

My questions concern parliament, and the limited number of options now available to it. The way I understand it, there are essentially three options for MPs plus the option of contesting the prorogation in court, but I don't see how any of them can result in the outcome they want: delaying Brexit, revocation of Article 50, or toppling the government:

• Option 1 - Under standing order 24 Parliament can request an emergency debate and petition the speaker to allow amendments which could produce binding legislation - given Mr Speaker's lack of aversion to this sort of thing, this seems likely. This legislation will presumably take the form of compelling the prime minister to ask for a further extension
  • Problem Even if parliament could mandate the prime minister to request an extension, they can't dictate how he might ask for one. He could say, 'oh I've been forced to ask you for another extension, but if you grant it Britain will use its EU membership to be disruptive'. The PM may phrase the request in a way that guarantees the EU's refusal, or given his temperament may even ignore the request.
• Option 2 - A motion of no confidence - under this mechanism, Parliament can say it no longer has faith in the government by a simple majority. This would trigger a 14-day window during which any and all politicians if they can cobble together a working majority can form a government.
  • Problem - this seems unlikely. Parliament may well vote for a motion of no confidence, but the government has indicated that it would ignore it. It seems unlikely an alternative government could be found within 14 days even shorter if the scheduled prorogation occurs mainly due to the fact that the remain cohort of MP's all have competing ideas. Jeremy Corbyn would probably insist on leading any such government and there is a lack of support among MP's for this option. Conservative MP's would be unwilling to endorse Mr Corbyn. The window then expires and a General Election becomes mandatory. By voting for the no-confidence motion, Parliament will have opted to dissolve itself. The timing of the election is in the gift of the executive, who will almost certainly schedule it post-Brexit.
• Option 3 - vote down the Queen's speech, effectively expressing a lack of confidence in the government.
  • Problem - votes on the Queen's speech are anticipated about two weeks before Brexit day. If it is rejected and no alternative government is found, Parliament is unable to prevent an election before Brexit day.
• Option 4 - Judicial review, asking the courts to examine the prorogation request for legality
  • Problem - Prorogation is typical parliamentary procedure and until very recently happened every year. It doesn't appear to be being abused, when the recess is taken into account the number of sitting days lost appears to be in line with averages. The Crown, in whose name the courts operate, also authorised the prorogation request. Can the courts go against the wishes of the crown?

In the second and third scenarios the precedent is not to interrupt the status quo, which currently (because of the EU Withdrawal Act and the Article 50 legislation, is no deal), so Parliament would be unable to amend the date.

So, coming to my question, does Parliament have any alternative avenues it can pursue to prevent a no-deal, and is there anything I'm missing in my analysis --Andrew 07:34, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

My thought would be even if the Remainers managed to get a bill through both Houses, Johnson could advise the Queen to withhold Royal Assent, at least until after 1 November.--Wehwalt (talk) 10:13, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

• Isn't this sort of thing the kind of advice that could lead to the abolition of the monarchy. Is the Crown entitled to reject advice that jeopardises the monarchy? --Andrew 11:01, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

I would imagine all that would be discussed between aides and would guide any advice that was made.--Wehwalt (talk) 11:06, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

It seems to be option 1 is missing a key point. AFAIK, the currently accepted legal situation is that the UK can unilaterally revoke their invocation of article 50 United Kingdom invocation of Article 50 of the Treaty on European Union#Reversibility. They just have to follow their constitutional norms. AFAIK the extension is not considered to have affected this. If parliament is able to force whoever is PM to revoke the invocation, then there's nothing the EU can do about it. Parliament would of course need to consider factors like Wehwalt mentioned to ensure the PM cannot get around attempts to force them to revoke the invocation [18][19][20][21][22][23]Revoke Article 50 and remain in the EU petition Also, per the sources, the ruling said that the revocation should be 'unequivocal and unconditional'. This is generally interpreted to mean that the UK cannot simply use the revocation as the ultimate form of kicking the can down the road and invoke article 50 again the next day, so it should really mean no Brexit rather than 'not Brexit this way'. (I'm not totally sure what would happen if the UK did try that. I would guess someone would challenge them and the outcome may be that the revocation was invalid and so the UK would leave the EU on 31st October barring a further extension. Maybe an extension would be granted from the time of the revocation until the decision to ensure they still have that remaining time.) Note that since this is a bit of a nuclear option, it's not something even many many remainer MPs like to talk about but of course that also means it's not something that any true Brexiteer wants to contemplate so they may be forced to accept alternatives if it comes down to it.Nil Einne (talk) 11:17, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

Look up Wiktionary:Information desk in Wiktionary, the free dictionary.

Look up Wiktionary:Translation requests in Wiktionary, the free dictionary.

Usage of 'child' / 'son or daughter'[edit]

In the case where one is referring to a hypothetical family in the context of activity which is limited to adults what is the preferred usage?

'No child of an immigrant has been elected mayor'. (because no child can be elected mayor in the first place)

'No son or daughter of an immigrant has been elected mayor'.

Extend this to the presidency of the United States.

'No child of a previous president other than John Quincy Adams or George W. Bush has been elected president'.

'No son or daughter of a previous president other than John Quincy Adams or George W. Bush has been elected president'.

For the real-world case:

'In 2001, George W. Bush would become the second child of a president to serve as president.'

'In 2001, George W. Bush would become the second son or daughter of a president to serve as president.'

'In 2001, George W. Bush would become the second son of a president to serve as president.'

What is the correct usage? The order of 'son or daughter' / 'daughter or son' is a separate concern. patsw (talk) 18:48, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

Both are fine, but why use three words when one will do. To avoid the very minor age quibble, you could use 'offspring'. Clarityfiend (talk) 19:16, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

In general, avoid 'son or daughter' because it mentions the male gender first and it thus gives more importance to men. Gender-neutral 'child' is always a valid substitute. Georgia guy (talk) 19:42, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

I try to avoid referring to an adult as a child. 'English doesn't really have an ideal word for your adult sons and daughters' according to this, but 'offspring' or 'progeny' are suggested (both maybe a bit pompous). Alansplodge (talk) 20:33, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

My own guideline is not to use jargon or unnecessarily formal terms (i.e. 'offspring', 'progengy', 'begotten', 'issue'). This is not an article on demography. 'Child' is gender-neutral but not age-neutral, which is my point after all. Another parallel construction:

Does the phrase 'ladies and gentlemen' imply women are more important? Iapetus (talk) 17:51, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

'The child of John Adams became president in 1825.' (No child becomes president)

'The son of John Adams became president in 1825.' patsw (talk) 00:05, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

When 'child' is used to mean offspring, it is age-neutral. For example, 'The oldest of my children is 40 years old,' says this 70-year-old woman.Georgia guy (talk) 00:17, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

Is this an improvement over the above then?

'The 57-year-old child of John Adams became president in 1825.'patsw (talk) 00:33, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

In that specific case, 'son' would be fine. ←Baseball Bugs^{What's up, Doc?}carrots→ 01:11, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

Why? What is the distinction between that case and the others? patsw (talk) 02:25, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

When you say X-year-old child, you are invoking the age-dependent sense of child instead of the age-neutral sense. It's a very subtle distinction. --Khajidha (talk) 02:44, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

Because there's no ambiguity. JQ was John Adams' son. Also one of his children, but when you know it's a son (or daughter) there's no reason not to say so, because 'son' and 'daughter' are sex-specific but age-independent. ←Baseball Bugs^{What's up, Doc?}carrots→ 03:21, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

(1) So a stand-alone 'child' always refers to a person under 18 (approximately). A 'child' qualified by an age-reference could indicate an adult son or daughter. Is that the consensus? patsw (talk) 14:06, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

No. 'A child' is a minor. 'The child of'/'a child of' can be of any age. And you only say 'x-year-old' child with minors, but 'my child is x-years-old' is not age dependent. --Khajidha (talk) 14:51, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

How about 'The election of George W. Bush in 2001 was only the second instance (after John Quincy Adams) in which a child of a president was himself elected president.' Bus stop (talk) 15:07, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

(2) So a stand-alone 'child' always refers to a person under 18 (approximately). A child qualified by 'of' could indicate an adult son or daughter without any other context. Is that the consensus? patsw (talk) 16:21, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

'Son' works just fine. If a woman gets elected president, and if one of her parents was also a president, then we can address the 'sexism' issue. Like, for example, if Chelsea Clinton runs and wins, or Jenna Bush or her sister Barbara runs and wins, or if one of Obama's daughters or Ivanka Trump runs and wins. ←Baseball Bugs^{What's up, Doc?}carrots→ 16:27, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

'Son' works for the specific case of US president as no woman has ever attained the office. But a more general statement would need to use 'child', as daughters must be considered if no offspring in general have achieved the feat. In some cases daughters may have attained an office, but sons might not (or vice versa). --Khajidha (talk) 17:45, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

Applying my consensus (2) to the general hypothetical:

'No child of an immigrant has been elected mayor'.

Is there consensus that is correct usage because the 'of' is there? patsw (talk) 18:16, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

• The thing that I think everyone is missing is that all language only makes sense in context, and the difference between two similar, and yet distinct definitions is understood through context. Context makes ambiguous or confusing ideas much more obvious. For example, the word 'child' has multiple definitions, only some of which means 'a minor'. In that link, that is definitions 1 and 2. But you'll note that definition 4 in that link does not require that a person labeled a child be a minor For example, when I say 'my parents have two children', in that context, you don't know the age of the children, they could even be adults! How would we know? By the context of other words. If I said 'My parents have two children that are CEOs of major corporations', the context of being a CEO means that no native English speaker would be thinking of any definition except definition 4. The definition meaning 'a son or daughter of human parents' without regard for age is obviously meant here; with the age being obvious and unambiguously inferred from the context of the rest of the description. This is different from 'I saw two children playing in the park'. In this case, definition 'a young person especially between infancy and youth' is obviously meant because the context of 'playing in the park' makes that context unambiguous. There is no need to avoid using a word with multiple definitions, because most English words have such multiple definitions. Context almost always solves ambiguity. --Jayron32 18:17, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

'Reclaim Hong Kong, revolution of our era'[edit]

The title is a translation of a HK protest slogan found in the English-speaking press (example). I saw an article somewhere (can't find it, sorry) according to which the original Cantonese for 'reclaim Hong Kong' has some ambiguity and could be understood as a claim for independence or larger autonomy. Is that correct?

As an aside, the article 2019 Hong Kong anti-extradition bill protests does not mention that slogan (maybe it should). Tigraan^{Click here to contact me} 12:30, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

This article? 'The protesters are now calling their movement a revolution to 'Reclaim Hong Kong,' a Chinese expression that can also mean 'Free Hong Kong,' depending on context.' Or this? '..part of the slogan is echoed by the expression 'bury one's parent'. Consequently, when the protesters ..are also simultaneously and paranomastically exclaiming that they are against the death of Hong Kong'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.67.193.176 (talk) 21:03, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

Old English to old French[edit]

I know the Latin root for south was 'meridianam' or 'auster', depending on the context, but the modern romance languages have 'sur', 'sud' or 'sul', though 'sud' is more common.

I had always assumed that there was a vulgar latin word 'sud' that was at the origin of all these cognates, but no, it came from English into French, and then from French it was borrowed by all the other romance languages, even languages as far from France as Romanian and Portuguese!!!

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That was amazing, but here is my question:I want to understand more about old French borrowing from Old English, presumably it was during the Angevin empire or later in the hundred years' war?Any good pointers on the extent / list of words borrowed from English to French in that period would be appreciated. --Lgriot (talk) 14:31, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

Auster was literally the south wind (sometimes with extended meaning of 'south' as a direction), but the adjective form australis was probably more common in the geographic meaning. Meridies meant 'noon', and also sometimes 'south', since in the Northern Hemisphere, the sun is at its southernmost at noon. Meridianam is the feminine accusative singular inflected form of an adjective derived from meridies.

The Wiktionary entry https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sud supports the Old English origin idea. Maybe it's because this word shows the Anglo-Frisian disappearance of nasals before fricatives (as also in 'tooth', 'five', 'goose' etc.), but in this particular word, a lot more Germanic languages than English and Frisian seem to have dropped the nasal: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/sunþrą .. -- AnonMoos (talk) 16:17, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

This is tough to research, since so many lists (like List of French words of English origin) contain almost exclusively modern words. Even lists like Mots français d’origine anglaise that contain pre-modern words borrowed from English like bifteck (steak), rosbif (roast beef), bouledogue (bulldog) and paquebot (packet boat) don't go back as far as Old English. But try these search strings in google: 'ancien anglais' site:https://www.larousse.fr/dictionnaires/ and 'anglo-normand' site:https://www.larousse.fr/dictionnaires/ and a few more come up: nord (north) and norrois (Norse), ouest (west), étai (forestay), loquet (latch), mouette (seagull) (from Old English word for mauve), bateau (boat), and strangely, gourmet (from Old English word for boy). 70.67.193.176 (talk) 20:40, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

Thanks 70.67, that is a really good tip. Any linguists/historians know about the period more precisely? Is it the twelth's century? the first half of the 15th century? Somewhere in the middle? Throughout the whole period of the English kings holding lands in France? --Lgriot (talk) 14:12, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

Pleasure! ancien anglais (English article) is 5-6th to 12th centuries, and anglo-normand (English article) was from 11th to early 15th century. Wish I knew of a French dictionary that gives exact dates like the OED does. Larousse gives some, but not this far back. 70.67.193.176 (talk) 16:56, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

Who or whom?[edit]

The article Maus used to say:

He displays racist attitudes, as when Françoise picks up an African American hitchhiker, who he fears will rob them.

This was later changed to:

He displays racist attitudes, as when Françoise picks up an African American hitchhiker, whom he fears will rob them.

I believe the first version was correct and this change was wrong, as the hitchhiker is the subject of the sentence '[he] will rob them', not the object. But then I'm not a native English speaker. Which version is correct? JIP Talk 13:28, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

The test is to reword the relevant clause with a non-relative pronoun. If 'he fears he will rob them' them is good, then who is correct, while if 'he fears him will rob them' them were good, then whom would be correct.. AnonMoos (talk) 13:39, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

In other words, 'who' is correct here. A simpler test is to take out the 'he fears' part and see how it reads then, since it is actually a kind of parenthesis. Thus, 'who [he fears] will rob them' is correct, and 'whom [he fears] will rob them' is incorrect. --Viennese Waltz 14:44, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

Per the above, 'who' is a subject pronoun and always plays the role that other similar pronouns would play (I, he, she, etc.). Whom is an object pronoun and plays the role that other object pronouns would play (me, him, her, etc.). As noted by both people above, remove the 'he fears' clause to see its role. In this case, it is acting as the subject of 'will rob them' so 'who' is correct. --Jayron32 16:04, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

AnonMoos did not say to remove the 'he fears' clause. It was only me who said that. --Viennese Waltz 18:51, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

Would you like a medallion or a certificate for your efforts? --Jayron32 00:48, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Neither, particularly. I was simply correcting your error. --Viennese Waltz 07:43, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

What is the meaning of 'wholesome' in the meme subculture?[edit]

The answer is in the title! 42.118.9.103 (talk) 14:29, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

So, you asked and answered your own question? ←Baseball Bugs^{What's up, Doc?}carrots→ 16:30, 29 August 2019 (UTC)Presumably the OP meant 'question' [is the title]. Answers:

• '15 minute read': Smalley, Seth (6 August 2019). 'The Value of Negative Memes in Positive Vibe Culture'. Medium.
• Quick read: 'Wholesome Memes'. Know Your Meme.

—2606:A000:1126:28D:C11B:68F2:2FB:1B34 (talk) 00:08, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

Pronunciation information for Adut Akech[edit]

Hi, can the experts here help with a sourced IPA for Adut Akech's name? It would be especially relevant in this article since there is a mention of her Australian teacher being unable to pronounce her name. Thanks 70.67.193.176 (talk) 17:55, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

'ou' sound before labial consonants[edit]

How come the sound of English ou as in out never occurs before labial sounds except in compound words such as cowboy?? (Read Wiktionary's entry for the word room, specifically information on its etymology.) Georgia guy (talk) 22:40, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

Maybe you could provide a link to that. ←Baseball Bugs^{What's up, Doc?}carrots→ 01:32, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

I've done it for him, here. Not sure I understand the question, though. What about actual 'cow'? (as in 'How now brown cow?'), or bow (of a ship), row (argument), sow, vow, wow? The Wictionary entry says '. . . /aʊ/ does not occur before noncoronal consonants in Modern English', but the term 'noncoronal consonant' seems to be rare and I haven't yet found a clear definition of it, so I'm uncertain as to what the statement means and whether it's correct. Anyone? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.122.61.224 (talk) 01:54, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

FWIW, A noncoronal consonant is simply a consonant that isn't in the set of coronal consonants, most commonly a labial consonant or dorsal consonant. They are also sometimes called Peripheral consonants.--William Thweatt^TalkContribs 03:22, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

@2.122.61.224: The <w> in 'cow' is a consonant letter but not a consonant sound. 'Cow' is pronounced /kaʊ/; there's only one consonant in the word, namely /k/. --Trovatore (talk) 03:45, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

Georgia_guy -- inhibition of diphthongization is the summary of the result of the various historical changes applying and not applying, but that's not really any kind of familiar linguistic process, as far as I'm aware (it certainly didn't apply to analogous words in German).

I'm just speculating here, but maybe ca. 1500 English [uː] had a dissimilated allophone with lower-than-usual tongue height before labial consonants (somewhat similar to how the sequence of sounds [wu] is prohibited in some languages, including Japanese), and this low-u allophone met and merged with [oː] being raised from below. I don't know of any specific evidence for this, but it's an explanation in terms of somewhat natural phonological processes (unlike inhibition of diphthongization).. AnonMoos (talk) 09:10, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

From what video game is the music that plays at a certain point in this video from?[edit]

There's a video game audio track that plays in this video during segments discussing bootleg versions of the NES game Adventure Island (the first time it plays is at the 10:39 mark). At first I thought it was from an Adventure Island game, but when I listened to the soundtracks of the NES game and its sequel, I didn't hear it. So where is this music from? Narutolovehinata5 00:26, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

The first appearance of 'Magic Missile'[edit]

Magic Missile is a spell which appears in many works of fiction, especially games. I'm quite sure the concept of the spell originates from some edition of Dungeons & Dragons, but I can't find any certain information about which edition of the game the spell first appeared in, and I'm not even completely sure if the concept of the spell actually originates from a totally different work of fiction. 46.132.187.197 (talk) 11:08, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

Not sure on the Magic Missile spell specifically, but the magic system in DND was originally inspired by the Dying Earth series of fantasy novels, see Dying Earth#Role-playing. If it did exist before DND, it would probably be there. If it didn't then it suspect it was in the first edition of DND which was published in 1974. It may also come from some of the other inspirations, see Sources and influences on the development of Dungeons & Dragons. --Jayron32 13:38, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

No 'Magic Missile' that I can recall in the Dying Earth, but I can let you have an 'Excellent Prismatic Spray' that will skewer your target just as well at a bargain price. Order within the next hour, and I'll throw in 'Phandaal's Gyrator' at no extra cost (shipping and handling extra). Clarityfiend (talk) 22:00, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

I wouldn't expect to find the word missile in The Dying Earth, unless used jocularly for something improvised: 'She picked up a goblet and hurled it at my head. I ducked and her missile shattered on the wall.' (Hm, it occurs to me that very few of Jack Vance's stories are told in first person.) —Tamfang (talk) 17:23, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

Not terribly relevant, but there really is such a thing as a Magic Missile. Alansplodge (talk) 20:43, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

The Crimson Permanent Assurance[edit]

Our article (and IMDb) list the cast, and specifies some of them as pirates (or executives of the VBCA), but is it known which one played the captain? IMDb has a pictures for a couple of them, but I'm terrible at recognizing faces. Matt Deres (talk) 23:06, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

I'm not sure which one of these five is considered the captain. I can tell you that the one in the middle is John Scott Martin. He was one of the longest serving Dalek operators in the history of Doctor Who. MarnetteD Talk 23:18, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

The Captain is the fellow on the left here: images.app.goo.gl/w8wxYay7vB9pp3VG7 (deadlinked due to blacklist). Matt Deres (talk) 00:52, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

Okay I went through the list and googled the names. It could be Wally Thomas, Paddy Ryan or Eric Francis. I lean strongly towards Wally T as his face is longer than the other two. Since this is only a guess on my part I've included the other pics for editors seeing this to chose from. If I'm completely off apologies for the misdirection. MarnetteD Talk 01:28, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

I think you're right - Wally Thomas it is - thank you very much! Matt Deres (talk) 16:43, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

You are welcome Matt Deres. Always remember 'It was the salmon mousse' :-) MarnetteD Talk 16:53, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

This page confirms 'Wally Thomas.. Crimson Permanent Assurance, Piratical Accountant/Captain'. Alansplodge (talk) 20:38, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

Rose Tico[edit]

'The character of Rose and the performance by Tran has received a largely positive reception from critics and fans'. I don't think this statement is true. She is as hated as Jar Jar Binks. Ericdec85 (talk) 20:31, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

Ericdec85, that's something you should take to Talk:Rose Tico, including reliable sources supporting your claim, of course. ---Sluzzelintalk 20:37, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

Lil Kim Hardcore album[edit]

Is Vibe magazine a reliable reference to call Lil Kim's Hardcore a classic I mean its an opinion that could go on for ages arguing over but is it reliable enough to call it that. If so, why?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_Core_(Lil%27_Kim_album)— Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.151.128.21 (talk) 08:00, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

An article in Vibe would certainly be a reliable source and worthy of quoting as one data point in the debate on whether that particular album is a classic. However, being considered a 'classic' usually means that there is a broad consensus in support of the piece as a major achievement in its artistic field, which means that you normally need more than one such opinion. --Xuxl (talk) 12:10, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

Daphne & Velma[edit]

Daphne & Velma is set in fictional Ridge Valley, California. But where was it actually filmed? Plus, I saw some rumors on the Internet. They were about a sequel to Daphne & Velma. Are any of them true?2604:2000:7104:2F00:E489:B375:36EB:1AC5 (talk) 09:10, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

Atlanta was the filming location. I can find no information on any planned sequels. --Jayron32 12:16, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

Funny, it used to be that shows were set in Atlanta and filmed in California.. 93.136.143.215 (talk) 12:14, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

The film industries, like many other industries, have for many years been moving to the American Southeast because of labor costs. Southern state governments are VERY unfriendly to unions, allowing companies (including media companies) to save money in labor costs by moving there. In particular Wilmington, North Carolina has become a major filming hub, the biggest outside of California. EUE/Screen Gems is based there and also has a location in Atlanta. I suspect that is where it was filmed. --Jayron32 12:22, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

How hard were the batting conditions during England's miracle comeback?[edit]

Was it easy relative to the number of overs that had been played already that match? It's usually hard to bat after that many overs right? Was the ball new? Why is a beaten up pitch easier after rain? At least in 1930s South Africa, maybe they didn't use tarps then. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 17:47, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

Can you clarify which match of which you are speaking? A link to a Wikipedia article or even an article outside of Wikipedia would give someone enough context to help you. --Jayron32 01:36, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Third Test of the 2019 Ashes. According to the article the Test with about 2,000 runs in the 30s was aided by rain rejuvenating the pitch several times and making it hard to get batsmen out. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 01:53, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

'OK, cricket mavens, here we go, into the bottom of the first innings, with the home town boys trailing by a thousand runs. Many of their supporters have put on their rally caps, while others, planning ahead, have donned their night caps. This broadcast is sponsored by Guinness, the Breakfast of Champions!' ←Baseball Bugs^{What's up, Doc?}carrots→ 00:03, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

They should try a nonstop Test once to find out what it's like. Australia and England shower and sleep at the ground the night before to save time, they wake up, eat breakfast and repeat the regular break schedule over and over (without the night break) until they finish the game. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 03:37, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

I just read all of 2019 Ashes series#Third Test. I can find nothing in there about 2000 runs, 1930s, or South Africa. Can you actually provide a link or direction to what you are talking about? --Jayron32 01:58, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

It was the Timeless Test article that taught me that rain can help rejuvenate a pitch. And the 2019 Ashes article (very detailed) seems to say it only rained on the first day and England did have a new ball in the middle of their run chase.Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 02:32, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

A new ball becomes available to the bowling side after 80 overs. It's usually regarded as giving an advantage to the bowling side. It's the choice of the bowling side as to when they take it (from 80 overs onward). Didn't see England's second innings, but I saw its first. Many dismissals were just dumb. Stupid choices of shots. Perhaps all England needed to do was not play so many dumb shots in its second innings. HiLo48 (talk) 05:02, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Makes sense, so that's why they sucked in the first innings and had such a big amount of runs to chase in the first place. And there were some quick dismissals in their second innings too so they might've had some luck too. Why is the new ball good for the bowlers? Does it bounce faster or something? And then bowling gets harder and later gets easier as you get random scuff marks and polish one side right? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 11:48, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

When asking a question by making a statement and adding 'right?' at the end, it would really help comprehension if you were to precede 'right?' with a comma. I spent/wasted some valuable moments of my life wondering what 'that many overs right' and 'polish one side right' meant, until your probable meaning dawned on me. -- Jack of Oz^{[pleasantries]} 18:50, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Ah, the mysteries of when to take the new ball. From Cricket ball#Condition of a cricket ball:

A new cricket ball is harder than a worn one, and is preferred by fast bowlers because of the speed and bounce of the ball off the pitch. Older balls tend to spin more as the roughness grips the pitch more when the ball bounces, so spin bowlers prefer to use a worn ball, though a ball of about 8–10 overs old is still useful to a spinner as it can get more drift in the air. Uneven wear on older balls may also make reverse swing possible. A captain may delay the request for a new ball if she/he prefers to have spin bowlers operating, but usually asks for the new ball soon after it becomes available.

Then there is this Quora answerHiLo48 (talk) 00:29, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

I understand the ball better now. I used to think a new ball was easier all other things being equal since you hadn't roughed up one side and polished the other yet. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 23:44, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

Test cricket: number of overs on final day[edit]

The above question made me think of another Ashes-related question. In the second Test, as our article states, England's final-day declaration left Australia a target of 267 runs to win off a scheduled 50 overs, which they did not reach, resulting in a draw. How was that figure of 50 overs calculated? The relevant rules are at Playing time (cricket)#Starting and finishing play, but that doesn't help me to understand how the figure of 50 overs was calculated in this particular case. Many thanks, --Viennese Waltz 12:42, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

I haven't worked it out, but the article you cited notes 'there is a requirement that a minimum of 90 six-ball overs are bowled' in a day, and the '50 overs' thing you note was after the completion of the morning session. Perhaps 40 overs had been bowled in the morning session and thus there were a 50 left to reach the 90 overs limit? --Jayron32 12:48, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

That seems possible. Confusingly, this match report says that Australia only had to bat out 48 overs, not 50. --Viennese Waltz 12:56, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

The number of overs to be bowled can be reduced if there are events that delay play during the day. These might be weather related, or all sorts of other things, such as a player getting injured and lying on the pitch for five minutes. That might remove one over from the target. I think that even the number of dismissals can effect it, since it takes time for the new batsman to come in. HiLo48 (talk) 00:04, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

In which movie was this ?[edit]

I have watched a particular movie more than once, but I cannot recall its name. There is a scene in it in which a male character is talking to, I believe, a young lady, and he tells her he has always imagined that he was the cat Orangey in Breakfast at Tiffany's, but which film is it ? I first thought it might have been Point Break, but I think now it is The Net, and it is a conversation between the characters played by Jeremy Northam and Sandra Bullock, but I cannot remember who was saying what.

Abnuceals Emuukha Electric Symphony Orchestra[edit]

What the heck does the name of the Abnuceals Emuukha Electric Symphony Orchestra mean? It looks like an anagram but I don't know of what. I can't even go ask Frank Zappa as he's been dead for a quarter of a century. JIP Talk 19:38, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

There's some inconclusive discussion on this Zappa-related forum. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 21:04, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

Assassin's Creed Black Flag question[edit]

I made what I think to be a damning mistake in Assassin's Creed IV: Black Flag, and thankfully the search engines have thus far provided every conceivable answer for the game except for the one I actually need here, so I'm asking if it is possible to return to the present time after the campaign ends in the game or do I need to reply 4.5 months of the game in order to fix my catastrophic mistake after being poisoned by the IT guy? TomStar81 (Talk) 22:51, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

There are several Assassin's Creed IV Black Flag forums. 2606:A000:1126:28D:C11B:68F2:2FB:1B34 (talk) 23:47, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

In other words, no. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1011:B061:3A7E:25D1:7695:2DD5:686 (talk) 03:39, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

Oldest & still active motor cargo ship in the world[edit]

I'd like to inquire about the oldest motorized cargo ship, globally. Which one is it? Sweden offers the Sydfart, built 1879, still in use. Any older motorships that are still in use in their intended role as cargo transport vessels? Please note that steam nor sail nor oar do matter in this instance, just motors. Regards, G-41614 (talk) 10:47, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

Wikipedia has an article titled List of oldest surviving ships. Maybe a place to start your research. --Jayron32 12:33, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

Of Sydfart, this article says: 'This ship is probably the oldest cargo vessel still in traffic'. I'm not sure that we're going to find an older one. However, she must have originally been steam propelled since Rudolf Diesel didn't fire-up the very first Diesel engine until 10 August 1893. The first ship ever to have a Diesel motor was Vandal (tanker) which took to the water in 1903. The Volvo Penta TMD engine currently mounted in the Sydfart seems to be quite modern; production of it ended in 2006. [24]Alansplodge (talk) 13:02, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

See also: The Ships enduring time – Sydraft the oldest cargo ship afloat (2017). Alansplodge (talk) 13:08, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

You may run into the ship of Theseus problem. That is, what qualifies as the 'same ship' ? If the name was changed and it was repainted and the sails and masts were removed and engines and props installed, is that still the same ship ? SinisterLefty (talk) 22:00, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

First, thank all of you for taking the time to reply. To adress the last issue first, other than the engine, no major parts were replaced, the hull was never rebuilt, and the ship has been in continuous use since it was built in 1879, predating the Diesel (good to know, I might have to work that in) & according to the sources, so the ship of Theseus does not yet apply. The ship being the above mentioned de:Sydfart, which now has an article at de:wp. So maybe I'll translate it, too. Regards, --G-41614 (talk) 07:18, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

@G-41614: you'll find the pages linked from here useful if you do write an article on Sydfart. Mjroots (talk) 09:16, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

I might indeed! Thnx. --G-41614 (talk) 10:04, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

See also M/S Sydfart on Swedish Wikipedia, which has further website refs. Alansplodge (talk) 12:01, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

Request for those who have seen or have the movie 'HBO Recount' (2008)[edit]

Hi, I'm coming immediately to the point: there is a scene in the initial part so let's say the movie where the actor who plays Clay Roberts, the electoral director tells a supervisor to put the ballots back in the machine. He was in Walton County, of course, in Florida. In that same county, in 2000, the voting system used was the optical scanners, but in the frame you see this lady and behind her boxes that contained perforated ballots and there is also another element you see a machine in disuse that served the same ballots. But at the same time a young man also appears alongside this lady who presumably collects data from a 'removable' machine that counted the votes with optical sensors. This disoriented me a bit: let's say this request can be futile and / or ridiculous. It must also be said that the film focuses almost exclusively on punched cards although these were not the only systems in use in that year. I did this reasoning: if the screenwriters intentionally inserted punched card boxes with the related machine in a county that did not adopt that system, it means that in the fictitious reality of the film if a preponderant allusion to the punched cards, so much is just a movie. What do you think of my reasoning? Can it be corrected? I look forward to your answers, if you wish. Thanks a lot. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.41.100.198 (talk) 19:37, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

a) Question asks for debate which is not what the ref desks are for and b) It is a movie not a documentary. MarnetteD Talk 19:44, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

Weird beeping sounds on telephones[edit]

Hello. I have noticed that sometimes when one answers the phone, one doesn't hear a person speak, but only hears a series of weird beeps or noises. What can cause this? Freeknowledgecreator (talk) 22:25, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

A fax machine or telephone modem calling your number by mistake. My number was apparently once entered into a fax machine's memory, as it kept calling me every day. That was particularly annoying since there is nobody to tell they have the wrong number. SinisterLefty (talk) 22:58, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

With caller-ID you might be able to figure out who's sending it. ←Baseball Bugs^{What's up, Doc?}carrots→ 00:51, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

Sales calls are often made by a computer. If you answer the call you may hear a beep as the computer transfers you to a human. I'm sure WikiP has an article about this so hopefully another editor will know where it is and provide a link to it. MarnetteD Talk 23:23, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

No, that's not the kind of beep I'm talking about. I'm talking about cases where you hear nothing but a beep, with no human voice. Freeknowledgecreator (talk) 23:34, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

Might be a little hard to do, but maybe you could record it? ←Baseball Bugs^{What's up, Doc?}carrots→ 23:36, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

I don't have the means or the interest. The responses here have pretty much answered my question. Freeknowledgecreator (talk) 01:38, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

Glad we could help. I'll mark it resolved. SinisterLefty (talk) 01:53, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

Question about Rolling Stone's readers[edit]

Good evening, I have a question, a curiosity: are the rankings of RS, surveys, etc., drawn up by American readers alone, or are the surveys also extended to readers from the rest of the world?I took one at random: let me know, thank you.https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-lists/rolling-stone-readers-pick-the-best-lead-singers-of-all-time-19450/

The obvious address for the question is the office of Rolling Stone magazine whose contact details are given at https://www.rollingstone.com/contact/. Their statement 'Last weekend we asked our readers to vote for their favorite lead singers' suggests that votes are counted from every country where the magazine is sold. DroneB (talk) 20:17, 24 August 2019 (UTC)

Demographics of Metro Detroit[edit]

Detroit is 80% black. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:409:280:53DC:C073:FBA5:6784:E419 (talk) 00:16, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

79.1%, but yeah. Is there a question here? If you're looking for more demographic info, check out https://factfinder.census.gov/bkmk/table/1.0/en/ACS/17_5YR/DP05/1600000US2622000EvergreenFir(talk) 00:20, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

It is theoretically possible to interpret OP's message as a request to make this edit. Poveglia (talk) 08:19, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

The word 'Metro' makes the 80% figure wrong. That is approximately true of Detroit city proper, but not when all the suburbs are included, many of which are mostly white. See Demographics_of_Metro_Detroit#Racial_and_ethnic_groups. SinisterLefty (talk) 14:03, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Legality of the Unabomber manifesto and other extremist documents in New Zealand[edit]

Hello. In general, is it legal to buy or sell extremist documents like the Unabomber manifesto, and similar things that could be seen as promoting violence, in New Zealand? I'm asking because of the recent prohibition of the manifesto of the alleged perpetrator of the Christchurch mosque shootings. Freeknowledgecreator (talk) 09:12, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

(and no, this is not a request for legal advice, it is general question about NZ law). Freeknowledgecreator (talk) 09:14, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

The Unabomber Manifesto does not appear in New Zealand's list of censored titles, nor do I see any other censorship decision regarding it. However, New Zealand's censorship law does not require such prior listing for a person to be guilty of certain related charges. Whether the manifesto would be considered 'objectionable' under NZ law, and whether a person would face potentially criminal charges for downloading it, is therefore not something we can answer. Someguy1221 (talk) 09:25, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

Does NZ have freedom of speech and the press? ←Baseball Bugs^{What's up, Doc?}carrots→ 11:55, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

A major difference between NZ and the US with regards to free speech is that in the former, 'innocent until proven guilty' is basically reversed. Under NZ law, Crimes related to possession and distribution of 'objectionable content' is a matter of strict liability. That is, while there are exceptions written into the law under which you are free to possess and distribute such material, the onus is on the defendant to prove that he is eligible for an exception, rather than on the state to prove the defendant is not. In that sense, 'objectionable content' is treated in NZ the way illicit drugs are treated in the United States. Overall though, prosecutions for violating this law are relatively rare, about 10 a year or so, and most of those are for possession of child pornography [25]. Someguy1221 (talk) 02:17, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

The New Zealand Bill of Rights Act 1990 (full text here) has two relevant clauses. Section 14 states 'Everyone has the right to freedom of expression, including the freedom to seek, receive, and impart information and opinions of any kind in any form.' Section 5 states 'Subject to section 4, the rights and freedoms contained in this Bill of Rights may be subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.' That is, you have the right to do so, unless the government decides that you don't. THIS IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE. Seek information from a lawyer in your jurisdiction if you have any questions about this. --Jayron32 12:30, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

• Do you have a citation for the prohibition of the Christchurch manifesto? It would seem likely that such a prohibition would have to cite the law it was based on. Andy Dingley (talk) 12:45, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

Here's an official source: [26] There is a 'Chief Censor Office' in New Zealand that makes such decisions based on the Films, Videos, and Publications Classification Act 1993. Xuxl (talk) 13:36, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

Department of Internal Affairs - The Department’s response to the Christchurch terrorism attack video – Background information and FAQs seems to back that up. the Christchurch video was classified as 'an objectionable publication' because it 'promotes extreme violence and terrorism'. Alansplodge (talk) 20:39, 26 August 2019 (UTC)A video is a whole different thing from the written word. ←Baseball Bugs^{What's up, Doc?}carrots→ 00:06, 27 August 2019 (UTC)Just to clarify, my question was a general inquiry about the legal status in New Zealand of manifestos that could be seen as promoting violence; the Unabomber manifesto was just an example. Freeknowledgecreator (talk) 01:41, 27 August 2019 (UTC)The relevant law seems to be deliberately vague, so absent a ruling that something is explicitly not objectionable, I don't think an answer can be given. However, the censorship office has a contact page you can use to ask if something in censored, or whether you can have an exception for educational/research/reporting purposes. Someguy1221 (talk) 02:24, 27 August 2019 (UTC)The article I linked in my answer above makes it clear that there is indeed an exception for educational/research/reporting purposes. --Xuxl (talk) 12:23, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

I'm being as vague as I can be to avoid crossing over into the legal advice threshold. From my understanding of NZ law [27], Someguy1221's responses here have been spot on. There is no automatic exception for 'educational/research/reporting purposes'. You need to apply and receive an exemption if you believe you need access for those or other reasons allowed.

In addition, they touched on a key aspect a lot of reporting of the manifesto seemed to get wrong. As with the video, it wasn't that the classification decisions suddenly made it illegal to possess or redistributed etc in NZ. Rather these decisions just confirmed it was. That said, unlike with the video, I have not heard of anyone being prosecuted for stuff they did solely relating to the manifesto before it was officially classified as objectionable. (I've seen suggestions it happened in limited cases with the video although I'm not sure since the time frame was not very long and it's clear those being targeted were those seen as going out of their way to re-distribute the material and I somewhat doubt they stopped with the decision.)

BTW this PR indirectly linked above may be of interest [28]

“In contrast, the documents reportedly posted by the recent terrorist attackers do not appear to contain all the same elements that we saw in The Great Replacement, which made that document particularly dangerous here. I have decided not to call in these documents at this stage.

“That is not to say these documents are harmless, they are not. They are further manifestations of a pathway to lethal extremism. We need to understand and address the underlying causes of this growing problem.

“But we will not gain understanding by reading documents produced by killers intent on inspiring others to kill. New Zealanders can give these documents the attention they deserve by ignoring them.”

Again that IMO seems deliberately vague. It seems to me it's explicitly not saying that the documents are not objectionable. But instead simply that they don't appear to contain all the same elements so they have not been called in 'at this stage'.

In truth, I don't think you have much chance of getting any general statements about the legality of such manifestos in NZ. You can try submitting any specific publication for classification [29][30] although nominally you could be refused leave. It will probably help if you have a commercial reason for wanting the classification rather than just an interest in understanding the limits of NZ law. Although that also means you will have to pay the commercial fee. If you make a submission and are refused leave and want to go ahead and possess or redistribute the material well that's the time you really need to speak to a lawyer.

It's perhaps worth remembering that NZ is small country. I think few people want us to spend lots of time and money deciding whether every single publication is objectionable. While this may seem problematic for those who could theoretically be prosecuted, the implementation of the laws and especially their prosecution is IMO deliberately carried out with this in mind. Note also with deliberately vague laws, there's a good chance things will change over time even if there are no changes in legislation. E.g. a decision made now in 2019 may be different from what would have been made in 1999 or will be made in 2039.

BTW, about the Bill of Rights stuff, I suggest reading our article or other sources. Parliamentary sovereignty and other factors means the interaction of the NZ Bill of Rights with other laws in NZ is intentionally limited.

Nil Einne (talk) 11:00, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

BTW, while not in great detail, the decision does document the things considered including the NZ Bill of Rights. I don't think I can link to them directly but [31] and search for 'great replacement' should find the entry for the manifesto. If necessary click on the specific entry for the manifesto and under 'associated documents' there will probably be 2 files, one the original decision and the other the board of review decision.

Mentioned in one of them is previous experience in classifying terrorist promotional material. In other words, while not extremely common, they have classified material in the past which they consider similar. You could probably find some examples of these. The closest I found from a quick attempt were 'What a victory for he who got shahada' and 'We came to fill the horror everywhere'. These are video files of an Arabic nasheed with English subtitles.

Note that despite BB's claim, it doesn't seem to me that a video has to be 'whole different thing from the written word'. I mean it can be, and I think people can reasonable feel the issues that apply to the shooter's live stream do not apply to the manifesto. OTOH, a video could simply be a recording of someone talking with no displays of any actual violent content or brutal murders being committed etc.

From my reading of the decisions, I don't think this applied here and I think there was genuine violent imagery being shown but I'm not sure and obviously have no intention of finding out. But the wider issue remains though, even if you find a classification decision for a video file, it doesn't mean the issues considered were much different, it may very well be spoken words that are of concern, nothing to do with violent imagery shown in the video. That said, I strongly suspect there are some other documents classified anyway.

10:16, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

Hillary Clinton[edit]

Gentlemen, enough of this. ←Baseball BugsWhat's up, Doc?carrots→ 01:41, 30 August 2019 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Is Hillary Clinton really involved in many crimes or is it just a conspiracy theory? 42.118.3.112 (talk) 05:02, 27 August 2019 (UTC) I would direct you to the articles at Category:Hillary Clinton controversies. The truth is that the Clintons are proximate to, honestly, the expected number and sorts of controversies for people who spent their lives in politics and hang out with billionaires. When you are as connected as they are, it is inevitable that you will be close to people committing white-collar crimes. In fact, I'd say that the Clintons actually must be remarkably clean for politicians, considering the incredible number of investigations into them that failed to result in charges. As for 'conspiracy theory', you'd have to point to something more specific. I've certainly seen many claims about Hillary's involvement in this, that or the other scandal, where even the accusation itself is just completely disconnected from reality. People like to accuse her of crimes, and some politicians even admitted the purpose of this was to hurt her poll numbers. Someguy1221 (talk) 05:24, 27 August 2019 (UTC) Also, some of her 'crimes' are incredibly minor, like using a private email server for government communications. Trump tried to make it sound like the crime of the century, and send her to prison, but in the end it wasn't even worth pursuing. SinisterLefty (talk) 06:23, 27 August 2019 (UTC) Not to mention Trump's own usage of private emails and phones... --Khajidha (talk) 13:17, 28 August 2019 (UTC) She's been investigated many times, and there's nothing there. ←Baseball BugsWhat's up, Doc?carrots→ 07:11, 27 August 2019 (UTC) Hillary is a bit boring, and that is a problem for her enemies. She is not the kind of person who gets drunk, starts a fight with a bouncer, throws stuff at paparazzi, accidentally kicks her chihuahua in the face and gets arrested. That means that a story criticizing her is always going to be rather boring. For example, I would criticize her for how her position on gay marriage has evolved over the years. Yawn. A lot of money, time and effort has been spent trying to find and create kompromat. So far all we got is that someone on her IT staff made at least one stupid decision and that she, like most 72yr olds, is not a computerwizard. She doesn't need to know how to install and configure her own mailserver; her staff should handle that kinda stuff. This absence of real evidence of wrongdoings despite a huge demand has left a vacuum that was quickly filled by all kinds of conspiracy nutcases. Poveglia (talk) 12:57, 27 August 2019 (UTC) That's why they're always trying to drag her husband into the discussion, as if she made him do the stuff he did. ←Baseball BugsWhat's up, Doc?carrots→ 02:48, 28 August 2019 (UTC) OP just asked if Hillary Clinton was 'really involved in many crimes'. No one disputes, aftrer an FBI investigation, that Hillary Clinton had a server installed at one of her homes on which confidential State Department Email was improperly stored. ComputerWorld magazine states in an article that this information was insecure for two months. [https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/798 U.S. Code Title 18, Section 798. 'Disclosure of classified information' says 'Whoever knowingly and willfully communicates, furnishes, transmits, or otherwise makes available to an unauthorized person, or publishes, or uses in any manner prejudicial to the safety or interest of the United States or for the benefit of any foreign government to the detriment of the United States any classified information—. .(3) concerning the communication intelligence activities of the United States or any foreign government; or(4) obtained by the processes of communication intelligence from the communications of any foreign government, knowing the same to have been obtained by such processes—Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.' The Federal statute 'Disclosure of classified information' has been enforced before and since Mrs. Clinton migrated thousands of Emails relevant to confidential and classified State Department business outside the firewalls of US Government servers. Our article on Clinton's first CIA Director John Deutch records 'Deutch fell out of favor with the Clinton administration because of public testimony he gave to Congress on Iraq. Specifically Deutch testified that Saddam Hussein was stronger than he was four years ago and the CIA might never be able to remedy the issue. Clinton replaced Deutch after he had won re-election. Deutch left the CIA on December 15, 1996,[2] and soon after it was revealed that several of his laptop computers contained classified information wrongfully labeled as unclassified.[8] In January 1997, the CIA began a formal security investigation of the matter. Senior management at CIA declined to fully pursue the security breach. Over two years after his departure, the matter was referred to the Department of Justice, where Attorney General Janet Reno declined prosecution. She did, however, recommend an investigation to determine whether Deutch should retain his security clearance.[9] Deutch had agreed to plead guilty to a misdemeanor for mishandling government secrets on January 19, 2001, but President Clinton pardoned him in his last day in office, two days before the Justice Department could file the case against him. After a conference on Attorney General Loretta Lynch's aircraft between her and Bill Clinton, [32] FBI Director Comey said .'Although we did not find clear evidence that Secretary Clinton or her colleagues intended to violate laws governing the handling of classified information, there is evidence that they were extremely careless in their handling of very sensitive, highly classified information.. For example, seven e-mail chains concern matters that were classified at the Top Secret/Special Access Program level when they were sent and received. These chains involved Secretary Clinton both sending e-mails about those matters and receiving e-mails from others about the same matters. There is evidence to support a conclusion that any reasonable person in Secretary Clinton’s position, or in the position of those government employees with whom she was corresponding about these matters, should have known that an unclassified system was no place for that conversation. In addition to this highly sensitive information, we also found information that was properly classified as Secret by the U.S. Intelligence Community at the time it was discussed on e-mail (that is, excluding the later “up-classified” e-mails).. None of these e-mails should have been on any kind of unclassified system, but their presence is especially concerning because all of these e-mails were housed on unclassified personal servers not even supported by full-time security staff, like those found at Departments and Agencies of the U.S. Government—or even with a commercial service like Gmail.. Separately, it is important to say something about the marking of classified information. Only a very small number of the e-mails containing classified information bore markings indicating the presence of classified information. But even if information is not marked “classified” in an e-mail, participants who know or should know that the subject matter is classified are still obligated to protect it.' . Comey concluded 'Although there is evidence of potential violations of the statutes regarding the handling of classified information, our judgment is that no reasonable prosecutor would bring such a case. Prosecutors necessarily weigh a number of factors before bringing charges. There are obvious considerations, like the strength of the evidence, especially regarding intent. Responsible decisions also consider the context of a person’s actions, and how similar situations have been handled in the past.. In looking back at our investigations into mishandling or removal of classified information, we cannot find a case that would support bringing criminal charges on these facts. All the cases prosecuted involved some combination of: clearly intentional and willful mishandling of classified information; or vast quantities of materials exposed in such a way as to support an inference of intentional misconduct; or indications of disloyalty to the United States; or efforts to obstruct justice. We do not see those things here.' Hillary Clinton wasn't prosecuted for a crime in that regard. It would be WP:OR to say whether or not she was involved in a crime. Read for yourself what Director Comey said, and see what former CIA Director John Deutch went through just for taking laptops home with information he was cleared to see and possess, after he fell out of favor with the Clinton White House. --loupgarous (talk) 00:33, 29 August 2019 (UTC) Not just OR, but a BLP violation. The question, 'Is/was Hillary Clinton involved in any crimes?' can only be answered, 'Legally speaking, NO.' ←Baseball BugsWhat's up, Doc?carrots→ 01:41, 29 August 2019 (UTC) The IT person(s) who configured the device(s) she used to email from (and bought and installed the server) made a dumb decision. Boring! If you wanna criticize a Clinton I'd recommend starting with Bill. Poveglia (talk) 02:35, 29 August 2019 (UTC) She hired someone to break the page-long exposition of her legal responsibilities to safeguard information that came into her possession when she processed in as Secretary of State. She signed a form promising not to do what she did - and it was her responsibility to keep that information safe and behind Federal firewalls. Especially the Top Secret/Special Access Program stuff that could have been human source intel. NOT boring when a host nation arrests one of your sources because they know where the TS/SAP information came from that someone picked off your unsecured home-brew server. Nice whataboutism, though. Let me guess. Bill made her neglect her custodial responsibility over Special Access Program data? Guy's a regular Devil in a Blue Dress. --loupgarous (talk) 02:51, 29 August 2019 (UTC) Yawn. Poveglia (talk) 03:21, 29 August 2019 (UTC) It was rather ironic that Trump was attacking Hillary for placing emails where they theoretically were more likely to be hacked by foreign entitires, while at the same time encouraging foreign entity Wikileaks to hack those very emails. SinisterLefty (talk) 03:34, 29 August 2019 (UTC) You've confused me with a fan of Trump's. I'm just allergic to serious diplomatic incompetence with a big body count. That would be the lady you all burn incense to. --loupgarous (talk) 03:49, 29 August 2019 (UTC) I am not a fan and I would never vote for her (or her husband) if she would be a politician in my country. That hasn't stopped me pointing out the facts tho. You have not provided evidence of 'serious diplomatic incompetence' and 'a big body count'. If you have some, then Fox News will love to hear all about it. If they publish the evidence you think you have we can include it in the article. If not, then having a political debate is pointless. You are not going to convince anyone and you are not going to be convinced by anyone. So why argue? Poveglia (talk) 22:36, 29 August 2019 (UTC) p.s. Sinister is Latin for the direction 'left', so SinisterLefty is LeftLeft. Seems unlikely that you and him are going to convince eachother. His cousin would be 'DexterousRighty'. ←Baseball BugsWhat's up, Doc?carrots→ 01:41, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

Conchita Wurst in BBC's 100 Women[edit]

How can Conchita Wurst be listed in BBC's 100 Women? Conchita Wurst is a man. JIP Talk 12:33, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

The article contains the sentence: 'Neuwirth uses masculine pronouns when referring to himself but feminine pronouns to describe Conchita'. The stage persona does not necessarily have to be exactly the same as the performer is in real life; that's kinda the point of creating one. Poveglia (talk) 12:46, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

(e/c) Not really – Thomas Neuwirth is a man, but Conchita Wurst is a female character. --Viennese Waltz 12:48, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

Did anyone else with a working knowledge of German do a spit take at Conchita Wurst's name (given she's a female character acted by a man)? --loupgarous (talk) 13:43, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

I'm surprised not to see Dame Edna Everage included. Richard Avery (talk) 14:58, 27 August 2019 (UTC)

Off-topic
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
The OP may be interested in learning more about genderfluidity, many people consider their gender identity to be not necessarily fixed, and can change given their particular context at a particular time and place in their lives, day to day, or even depending on what they are doing or feeling at that moment. Most important, it isn't the OP's job to tell someone else what their gender is or can be. --Jayron32 01:12, 28 August 2019 (UTC) People should be careful when having intimate moments. They wouldn't want to get any of that gender fluid spilled on their clothes. (apologies to Barry Humphries) -- Jack of Oz[pleasantries] 03:01, 28 August 2019 (UTC) You are assuming the OP's job, right? There are jobs where it is necessary to tell a person what their gender is. For example, an OB/Gyn should tell a man that he absolutely has no risk of ovarian cancer no matter how much he wants to identify as a woman. 199.164.8.1 (talk) 14:52, 28 August 2019 (UTC) Your disingenuousness speaks volumes about your character. You know exactly what the issues are, and you choose to ignore them. --Jayron32 14:55, 28 August 2019 (UTC) Not to mention that 199.whatever is assuming that the man in question is not a trans man who CAN have ovarian cancer. And, while I don't know of any cases of individuals identified at birth as male who turned out to have ovaries due to mosaicism or something, I am aware of individuals who were identified at birth as female who turned out to have undeveloped, undescended testicles and had them removed as a preventive measure against testicular cancer. Translation, sex and gender are nowhere near as clear cut as 199.whatever would like them to be. --Khajidha (talk) 15:31, 28 August 2019 (UTC) Only on the Wikipedia reference desk can a conversation go from Conchita Wurst to ovarian cancer. JIP Talk 18:25, 28 August 2019 (UTC) To be clear.. If you do not have ovaries, you cannot develop ovarian cancer. By 'trans man' above, you must be referring to a woman who has transitioned to a man and not a man who has transitioned (presumably to a woman). There are no documented cases of a person born male who has ovaries implanted as part of a transition to female. Current ovarian transpant procedures are very limited (and very novel in my opinion) and used to remove ovaries from a woman and place them back again later. As with any procedure, there is testing of transplant from one female to another, but if you want to be that pedantic, you can claim that any procedure imaginable could be happening illegally somewhere in the world. So, the statement above should be that an OB/Gyn will tell a person who does not overies that ovarian cancer is not possible. If you don't have ovaries, you can't imagine them into existence and form cancer. Similarly, if you don't have a prostate, you can't get prostate cancer (unless you want to pretend that the skene glands are prostates, just to make an argument). 135.84.167.41 (talk) 19:18, 28 August 2019 (UTC) Yes, a trans man is someone who is undergoing or has undergone the process of transitioning to being a man. It is quite possible for such a person to still have their ovaries and to develop ovarian cancer. --Khajidha (talk) 20:42, 28 August 2019 (UTC) I think I see OP's original point (User:JIP, please correct me if I'm wrong). Conchita Wurst is a fictional characterportrayed by a man. It makes as much or as little sense for the BBC to classify Conchita Wurst as one of their 'Top 100 Women' as it would for them to classify Captain James T. Kirk as one of their 'Top 100 Astronauts'. The BBC implied (jokingly, I hope) that being a literary invention is as consequential as being a woman (i.e., a living female person). --loupgarous (talk) 19:49, 28 August 2019 (UTC) The personal life section of the Conchita Wurst article says that 'Neuwirth has stated that he is not a 'trans woman', but is a man', which is backed by a couple of sources, one of which (The Guardian) states, 'One of the most common misconceptions about Conchita is that she has had, or wants, a sex change. She is careful to differentiate between drag artists and transgender people'.[33] So Conchita Wurst is a stage character, a drag queen, not a woman. However, it's pointless having a discussion here about whether the BBC should have included the character in their list, because it's the BBC's list and they can include what they like (though they might be criticised for it by licence-fee payers). PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 20:03, 28 August 2019 (UTC) Anyone can criticize the propriety and logic of the BBC's choices of 'Top 100 Women' if they like - though I concede Reference Desk isn't the forum for a debate, someone's beaten us to that here. Thanks for the information, I had no idea who or what Conchita Wurst was before this discussion. --loupgarous (talk) 23:33, 28 August 2019 (UTC) If they'd listed a fictional cartoon character as a woman of the year, nobody'd say a word about it. Let's not stress about who's a legitimate woman. Temerarius (talk) 03:11, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

Overseas absentee ballots in Palm Beach County in 2000[edit]

Hi, with regard to the absentee ballots of the county of Palm Beach, that is to say the voters abroad in 2000, the latter were probably also punched with a different style but counted by hand by election workers, and not by voting machines? So was the counting taking place? Thank you, I'm very curious about this thing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.41.100.198 (talk) 09:18, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Absentee ballots are not 'punched'. They are filled out with a pen. They are counted by hand if necessary. Example: Assume you have an election and one candidate is 2,000 votes ahead of the other. You have 100 absentee ballots. Do you use county resources to count those ballots? Of course not. This isn't sports. Nobody cares if someone wins by 2,000 or 1,900 votes. If, however, one candidate is ahead by 100 votes and you have 100 absentee ballots, it is possible that every ballot is for the current loser. So, you start counting. If you find just one vote for the candidate who is ahead, there is no way for the ballots to get the one behind caught up. So, you stop. That is why it is possible that absentee ballots are ignored. It is also why they sometimes start counting and stop. However, extensive abuse of the absentee ballot system is making it more and more common to count absentee ballots simply because there are so many more of them. But, they are not all counted. They count enough to ensure that the uncounted ones aren't enough to change the result. 199.164.8.1 (talk) 14:48, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

^{[citation needed]} for the claim there is 'extensive abuse of the absentee ballot system'. I'm not an American but I follow the US election process enough to know there are a lot of claims of fraud without any real evidence. So if claims are going to be made on the RD of such things, evidence should be provided. An increase in the number is no real evidence in fraud, it could be either there are more people legally eligible or more eligible people who bother to take part. Nil Einne (talk) 05:52, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

Thanks a lot. In practice, an absentee ballot is different from a traditional ballot. Are there the names of the candidates on the ballot, and a space to 'blacken' or compile as in optical scans? Can my interpretation be correct? Thanks again. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.41.100.198 (talk) 15:00, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

If you do a search for 'absentee ballot images', you will find many images. There is no standard format. You will see many different takes on the same concept. They are paper. They have boxes or squares or something similar to fill in. 135.84.167.41 (talk) 19:10, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

Question about Vesna Vulović[edit]

Today's featured article Vesna Vulović says that she fell from a height of over 10 km without a parachute and survived. What did she fall on? JIP Talk 18:22, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

According to the article, she was found 'amid the wreckage' so presumably that helped to cushion her fall. Also that is a forested area, and according to this article the trees softened the blow, but apparently she was saved by a food cart.--Shantavira ^{feed me} 18:58, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

This BBC report suggests that she was trapped (by the food cart) inside the tail section of the falling aircraft. 'According to investigators, Vulovic was trapped by a food cart in the plane's tail section as it plummeted to earth in freezing temperatures. The tail landed in a heavily wooded and snow-blanketed part of a mountainside, which was thought to have cushioned the impact'. Alansplodge (talk) 11:38, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

And we already know how useful it is to have access to some peanuts for such a traumatic trip.--Shantavira ^{feed me} 12:02, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

I'm not sure if a falling tail section would fall faster or slower than the terminal velocity of a falling human but wouldn't want to try it anyway. Perhaps the crumpling of the fuselage on impact acted as a shock absorber?

We have a Category:Fall survivors. Nicholas Alkemade of the RAF survived a 5 km fall by means of a similar tree / snow combination. Alansplodge (talk) 12:55, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

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  $17.03 shipping

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• EnVision Math 5th GRADE Student Textbook - Grade 5 (Oklahoma Edition)

  Student and school markings inside cover and on bookedge. No markings on text pages.

  Subject: Math

  $19.40 shipping

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• Envision Math 2.0 5th Grade 5 Etext Student Edition CD-Rom Software

  EText Student's Edition CD-Rom. SCOTT FORESMAN ADDISON WESLEY ENVISION MATH 2.0.

  Subject: Math

  Was: Previous Price$49.99

  Language: EnglishCustoms services and international tracking provided

• Envision Math 2.0 5th Grade 5 Exam View Assessment Suite CD Examview Software

  SCOTT FORESMAN ADDISON WESLEY ENVISION MATH 2.0.

  Subject: Math

  Was: Previous Price$99.99

  Topic: AssessmentLanguage: EnglishCustoms services and international tracking provided

• Envision Math 2011 Student Edition Grade 5 by Scott Foresman Homeschool

  Subject: Math

  $22.00 shipping

  Format: HardcoverTopic: HomeschoolingCustoms services and international tracking provided

• Envision California Math Grade 5 Teachers Guide Resources Lessons. Large Spiral

  <p>Large spiral book, Teachers Resources, student lessons and guide. Grade 5.</p>

  Subject: Math

  $18.86 shipping

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• enVision MATH Texas Grade 5 Electronic Student Edition CD Homeschool Common Core

  EnVision Math Texas Edition. Electronic version of the textbook.

  Top Rated Plus

  $19.21 shipping

  Subject: MathFormat: eBook (Physical Delivery)Topic: HomeschoolingCustoms services and international tracking provided

• 4 Common Core enVision Math Grade 5 and 1 Workbook Pearson Cal Foresman Wesley

  Pearson Cal Foresman Wesley 4 Hardcover Common Core enVision Grade 5 Math Workbooks and 1 Softcover Reteaching and Practice Workbook. California Common Core Edition. (Always refer to the condition before purchasing).

  Subject: Math

  $35.28 shipping

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• enVision Math Grade 5 Common Core Reteaching and Practice Workbook NEW

  New

  Subject: Math

  $19.49 shipping

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• Scott Foresman enVision Math FL Grade 5 Assessment Workbook NEW 2011(2s5 3m)*733

  Publisher : Scott Foresman. Specs: NEW Condition,may have lite wear from shelving. Contents by unit or chapter(see pic).

  Subject: Math

  Was: Previous Price$2.00

  Format: PaperbackType: Workbook

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• enVision Math Grade 5 Student Workbooks Vol 1 W/Teacher Editions Pearson New/Old

  <p>See pictures for best description</p>

  Subject: Math

  $16.50 shipping

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• enVision Math Grade 5 California Benchmark Tests book Scott Foresman 0328344400

  ISBN-10: 0328344400. Published by Scott Foresman Addison Wesley in 2009. enVision Math Grade 5 - California edition - Benchmark Tests book. ISBN-13: 9780328344406.

  Subject: Math

  $35.65 shipping

  Format: PaperbackType: Test Book

• Envision Math Common Core Grade 5 California by Pearson Ca. Used

  <p>EnVision Math California edition grade 5 textbook. Starting with multiple copies available. The images are representative of the book you will receive.</p>

  Subject: Math

  $22.02 shipping

  Format: HardcoverType: TextbookCustoms services and international tracking provided

• enVision Math 2.0 Grade 5 Teacher Demonstration Kit Pearson

  We never know what will find. A boxed set that includes lesson plans, teacher resources, binders etc. may be incomplete and again, we do our best to show you what you are getting by showing the pictures.

  Subject: Math

  $42.52 shipping

  Language: EnglishCustoms services and international tracking provided

• NEW EnVision MATH 2.0 Common Core Student Edition GRADE 5 WORKBOOK 5th, Volume 1

  5th Grade - Over 450 Full Color Pages. See table of contents in photos.

  Subject: Math

  Was: Previous Price$19.94

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• enVision Math Grade 5 Resource Masters Replacement Package

  <p>enVision Math Grade 5 Resource Masters Replacement Package. Condition is Brand New. Shipped with USPS Media Class Package.</p>

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  $33.02 shipping

  Ending Today at 7:30AM PDT2h 41mSubject: MathCustoms services and international tracking provided

• Envision Math Grade 5 by Scott Foresman

  This book is titled Envision Math Grade 5 by Scott Foresman! We simply strive to provide students and professionals with the lowest prices on books and textbooks available online.

  Subject: Math

  $15.88 shipping

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• F enVision Math 2.0 Problem Solving reading Mats Grade 5

  Have one new.

  Subject: Math

  $28.85 shipping

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